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Ambiguous descent clearance coupled with radar vectors results in disputed crossing requirement between ZLC radar controller and flight crew of A319.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 614641 |
| Time | |
| Date | 200404 |
| Day | Fri |
| Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | airport : slc.airport |
| State Reference | UT |
| Altitude | msl single value : 28000 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | IMC |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | artcc : zlc.artcc tower : mci.tower |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | A319 |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Flight Phase | descent : intermediate altitude |
| Route In Use | arrival : on vectors |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : commercial pilot : atp pilot : multi engine |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time type : 7000 |
| ASRS Report | 614641 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : commercial pilot : atp |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 202 flight time total : 6000 flight time type : 1000 |
| ASRS Report | 614639 |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | altitude deviation : undershoot altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met non adherence : clearance non adherence : published procedure |
| Independent Detector | other controllera other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | none taken : unable |
| Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
| Supplementary | |
| Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance Environmental Factor ATC Human Performance |
| Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Narrative:
At 28000 ft, were cleared to ffu VOR at 50 mi away. ATC then said cross ffu south of it at 15 mi at 15000 ft. We had an 80 KT tailwind and we slowed to 250 KTS. With an open descent and full spoilers, we were going to be 5000 ft high at the 15 mi fix. ATC then started to vector us 3 times left and right of course for flow into slc. I believed he was vectoring us knowing there was no way we could comply with his instructions. The last turn was about 70 degrees from ffu and ATC asked why we were not at 15000 ft. 1) we were going down as fast physically possible. 2) we never really went towards ffu. 3) we were in terrain that goes to 14000 ft and were vectored off airways. 4) ATC should know the limitations of aircraft and some basic geometry. 5) when given a point to cross, then vectored away from that point, how do we comply with his instructions. Supplemental information from acn 614639: the controller asked if he had given us the instructions to cross 15 mi from ffu at 15000 ft. I replied we did receive those instructions, but then he turned us away from ffu. Again he asked if we had been given the instructions to cross 15 mi from ffu at 15000 ft. Again I replied we had received the instructions, but when you aren't going to the fix, how do you comply with that clearance. Again, for the third time, the controller asked if we had received the clearance to cross 15 mi from ffu at 15000 ft. Again, we replied that we had, but the he turned us away from the fix. He directed us to change to salt lake city approach control.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: AMBIGUOUS DSCNT CLRNC COUPLED WITH RADAR VECTORS RESULTS IN DISPUTED XING REQUIREMENT BTWN ZLC RADAR CTLR AND FLT CREW OF A319.
Narrative: AT 28000 FT, WERE CLRED TO FFU VOR AT 50 MI AWAY. ATC THEN SAID CROSS FFU S OF IT AT 15 MI AT 15000 FT. WE HAD AN 80 KT TAILWIND AND WE SLOWED TO 250 KTS. WITH AN OPEN DSCNT AND FULL SPOILERS, WE WERE GOING TO BE 5000 FT HIGH AT THE 15 MI FIX. ATC THEN STARTED TO VECTOR US 3 TIMES L AND R OF COURSE FOR FLOW INTO SLC. I BELIEVED HE WAS VECTORING US KNOWING THERE WAS NO WAY WE COULD COMPLY WITH HIS INSTRUCTIONS. THE LAST TURN WAS ABOUT 70 DEGS FROM FFU AND ATC ASKED WHY WE WERE NOT AT 15000 FT. 1) WE WERE GOING DOWN AS FAST PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE. 2) WE NEVER REALLY WENT TOWARDS FFU. 3) WE WERE IN TERRAIN THAT GOES TO 14000 FT AND WERE VECTORED OFF AIRWAYS. 4) ATC SHOULD KNOW THE LIMITATIONS OF ACFT AND SOME BASIC GEOMETRY. 5) WHEN GIVEN A POINT TO CROSS, THEN VECTORED AWAY FROM THAT POINT, HOW DO WE COMPLY WITH HIS INSTRUCTIONS. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 614639: THE CTLR ASKED IF HE HAD GIVEN US THE INSTRUCTIONS TO CROSS 15 MI FROM FFU AT 15000 FT. I REPLIED WE DID RECEIVE THOSE INSTRUCTIONS, BUT THEN HE TURNED US AWAY FROM FFU. AGAIN HE ASKED IF WE HAD BEEN GIVEN THE INSTRUCTIONS TO CROSS 15 MI FROM FFU AT 15000 FT. AGAIN I REPLIED WE HAD RECEIVED THE INSTRUCTIONS, BUT WHEN YOU AREN'T GOING TO THE FIX, HOW DO YOU COMPLY WITH THAT CLRNC. AGAIN, FOR THE THIRD TIME, THE CTLR ASKED IF WE HAD RECEIVED THE CLRNC TO CROSS 15 MI FROM FFU AT 15000 FT. AGAIN, WE REPLIED THAT WE HAD, BUT THE HE TURNED US AWAY FROM THE FIX. HE DIRECTED US TO CHANGE TO SALT LAKE CITY APCH CTL.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.