|37000 Feet||Browse and search NASA's
Aviation Safety Reporting System
|Local Time Of Day||1201 To 1800|
|Locale Reference||atc facility : lax|
|Altitude||msl bound lower : 8500|
msl bound upper : 8500
|Controlling Facilities||artcc : zla|
tracon : las
|Operator||general aviation : personal|
|Make Model Name||Small Aircraft, High Wing, 1 Eng, Retractable Gear|
|Flight Phase||cruise other|
|Route In Use||enroute : direct|
|Function||flight crew : single pilot|
|Qualification||pilot : instrument|
|Experience||flight time last 90 days : 50|
flight time total : 1500
flight time type : 900
|Affiliation||government : faa|
|Function||controller : approach|
|Qualification||controller : radar|
|Anomaly||other anomaly other|
other anomaly other
other spatial deviation
|Independent Detector||other flight crewa|
|Resolutory Action||none taken : anomaly accepted|
|Air Traffic Incident||Inter Facility Coordination Failure|
I was flying to north las vegas, and was 53 mi out when I contacted ZLA requesting flight following and permission to enter las TCA. I was given a squawk. 5 mins out from TCA I was told to contact las approach. I did, and they told me to contact nellis approach. I did. They said contact las approach (same frequency). I said 'they told me to contact you.' I was told to stand by. Then I was told again to contact la approach same frequency. I did, same controller. I requested clearance to enter TCA. Told, 'maintain present heading and altitude.' at 1/2 mi out I was anxious. Asked again for clearance. Again the response: 'maintain heading and altitude.' by my estimation I was entering the TCA when told to contact nellis. I did and was told, 'cleared to operate in the TCA...' I believe the clearance came far too late. I want to know if 'maintain heading and altitude' that takes me into a TCA is in fact an implied clearance. After the second 'maintain...' I considered doing a 90 degree turn and getting out of the ATC environment. But please take a look at the las terminal chart. The options available to get to las vegas north clear of the TCA are not desirable. There is a big squeeze between the TCA and ground. Then there is nellis traffic, and they can be scary. There was an obvious failure to coordinate between las approach and nellis. ATC has an obligation to advise of clearance to enter in a much more timely manner. This is an incident that caused me unnecessary worry. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following: reporter finally ended up on the nellis frequency which he should have been on from the beginning. They vectored him away from the climb corridor to the west passing north of nellis AFB and toward higher terrain. I explained why it was a very poor idea for him to enter the TCA at a point on the las 028 degree right as that put him opp direction to high speed nellis departures. Very strongly suggested that next time he avoid that area and proceed further east. I also suggested that it looked like neither las or lsv radar had yet idented his target and that they were not sure which airspace he was entering. Also that he should try to get controller to say the magic words, 'cleared into TCA.'
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: GA PLT COMPLAINT REFERENCE LACK OF ATC CLRNC INTO TCA, AND APPARENT POOR COORD BETWEEN LAS APCH AND LSV APCH CTLRS.
Narrative: I WAS FLYING TO NORTH LAS VEGAS, AND WAS 53 MI OUT WHEN I CONTACTED ZLA REQUESTING FLT FOLLOWING AND PERMISSION TO ENTER LAS TCA. I WAS GIVEN A SQUAWK. 5 MINS OUT FROM TCA I WAS TOLD TO CONTACT LAS APCH. I DID, AND THEY TOLD ME TO CONTACT NELLIS APCH. I DID. THEY SAID CONTACT LAS APCH (SAME FREQ). I SAID 'THEY TOLD ME TO CONTACT YOU.' I WAS TOLD TO STAND BY. THEN I WAS TOLD AGAIN TO CONTACT LA APCH SAME FREQ. I DID, SAME CTLR. I REQUESTED CLRNC TO ENTER TCA. TOLD, 'MAINTAIN PRESENT HDG AND ALT.' AT 1/2 MI OUT I WAS ANXIOUS. ASKED AGAIN FOR CLRNC. AGAIN THE RESPONSE: 'MAINTAIN HDG AND ALT.' BY MY ESTIMATION I WAS ENTERING THE TCA WHEN TOLD TO CONTACT NELLIS. I DID AND WAS TOLD, 'CLRED TO OPERATE IN THE TCA...' I BELIEVE THE CLRNC CAME FAR TOO LATE. I WANT TO KNOW IF 'MAINTAIN HDG AND ALT' THAT TAKES ME INTO A TCA IS IN FACT AN IMPLIED CLRNC. AFTER THE SECOND 'MAINTAIN...' I CONSIDERED DOING A 90 DEG TURN AND GETTING OUT OF THE ATC ENVIRONMENT. BUT PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT THE LAS TERMINAL CHART. THE OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO GET TO LAS VEGAS NORTH CLR OF THE TCA ARE NOT DESIRABLE. THERE IS A BIG SQUEEZE BTWN THE TCA AND GND. THEN THERE IS NELLIS TFC, AND THEY CAN BE SCARY. THERE WAS AN OBVIOUS FAILURE TO COORDINATE BTWN LAS APCH AND NELLIS. ATC HAS AN OBLIGATION TO ADVISE OF CLRNC TO ENTER IN A MUCH MORE TIMELY MANNER. THIS IS AN INCIDENT THAT CAUSED ME UNNECESSARY WORRY. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING: RPTR FINALLY ENDED UP ON THE NELLIS FREQ WHICH HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON FROM THE BEGINNING. THEY VECTORED HIM AWAY FROM THE CLB CORRIDOR TO THE W PASSING N OF NELLIS AFB AND TOWARD HIGHER TERRAIN. I EXPLAINED WHY IT WAS A VERY POOR IDEA FOR HIM TO ENTER THE TCA AT A POINT ON THE LAS 028 DEG R AS THAT PUT HIM OPP DIRECTION TO HIGH SPD NELLIS DEPS. VERY STRONGLY SUGGESTED THAT NEXT TIME HE AVOID THAT AREA AND PROCEED FURTHER E. I ALSO SUGGESTED THAT IT LOOKED LIKE NEITHER LAS OR LSV RADAR HAD YET IDENTED HIS TARGET AND THAT THEY WERE NOT SURE WHICH AIRSPACE HE WAS ENTERING. ALSO THAT HE SHOULD TRY TO GET CTLR TO SAY THE MAGIC WORDS, 'CLRED INTO TCA.'
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of August 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.