Narrative:

The incident occurred over an overcast cloud deck while on a training flight with my CFI, who was PIC. While receiving flight following from pt mugu approach, my CFI advised the controller that we (aircraft X) were outbound on the 075 degree radial at 7500 ft and requested a clearance to sna through lax class B airspace via the shoreline transition. Mugu advised us to expect radar vectors for the transition and to notify them when we started our descent, which we did at this point. I believe we were also told by mugu approach to maintain our heading, but it's possible that my CFI is the one who actually told me this and not mugu. Since the floor of the class B airspace was 5000 ft, we held an indicated altitude of approximately 4600 ft, so as to be below the class B airspace in the event that we were further south than we thought. The top of the bur class C airspace, which we were approaching but were waiting to be vectored away from by the controller, is 4800 ft. I was more concerned with staying below the class B airspace. Pt mugu approach informed us that the shoreline was not available but to expect vectors for the sfr transition instead. A few mins later, mugu approach advised us that we couldn't have the sfr transition clearance, radar services terminated, squawk 1200 and call socal. We contacted socal. When my CFI again requested the sfr transition, we were advised that we were on the wrong frequency. I initiated a climb and a slight turn to the north (approximately 040 degree heading) to ensure that we were going up over the bur class C airspace and not breaking the 5000 ft floor of the lax class B airspace. Socal was advising a B737 of an aircraft squawking VFR nearby that had no authority/authorized to be in the class C airspace. I saw the B737 (aircraft Y) at my 10 O'clock position and turned back to a 075 degree heading. There was a distance between the 2 of us (1-2 mi) and we were not on a collision course. The socal controller was asking the B737 if it had needed to take any evasive action. The B737 pilot answered in the negative. My altimeter was reading 5100 ft while this was happening. I do not believe that we encroached on the class C airspace. However, the controller was of a different opinion. My CFI thought it advisable to turn north, stay above the class C airspace. This incident was caused by the poor interaction between the pt mugu and socal controllers. I think that we were essentially 'hung out to dry.' our situational awareness was excellent. The fact that socal reported us busting the class C airspace tells me that the pt mugu controller demonstrated a lack of concern over the situation. I think problems like this can be avoided in the future by ensuring that the controllers show a little more concern for VFR flight following pilots by promptly informing them of deviations from their expected clrncs and giving them correct information. Supplemental information from acn 472690: once it became obvious that the VFR corridor option suggested by socal was not passable in VFR we started to dial back to secure a bur class C clearance. However, the frequency was completely jammed and we were simply unable to get a word in edgewise. Because the terminal chart uses ground references (not radio aids) to identify the common east/west northern boundary of the northern class B airspace boundary/southern bur class C boundary, it was not impossible for us to ascertain on which side of the boundary we were on. This was not the first time that, on a sebound VFR flight through ventura through los angeles county, mugu has given us flight following directly to the doorstep of the northwest las class B airspace boundary, and then failed or refused to initiate a handoff. The totality of circumstances left us boxed in, and with the lack of definition of bur's class C airspace by NAVAID. We were apparently already in bur's class C airspace before we had an opportunity to establish 2-WAY radio communication. This lesson has taught us the prudence of filing IFR on these sebound flts (even in VFR conditions) to ensure we are not left at the mercy of the TRACON controllers' whims concerning provisions of services to VFR aircraft.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: PA44 TRAINING FLC INITIATE EVASIVE MANEUVER WHEN THEY PERCEIVE THEY CONFLICT WITH A B737 WHILE EXITING BUR CLASS C AIRSPACE, TRYING TO AVOID LAX CLASS B AIRSPACE.

Narrative: THE INCIDENT OCCURRED OVER AN OVCST CLOUD DECK WHILE ON A TRAINING FLT WITH MY CFI, WHO WAS PIC. WHILE RECEIVING FLT FOLLOWING FROM PT MUGU APCH, MY CFI ADVISED THE CTLR THAT WE (ACFT X) WERE OUTBOUND ON THE 075 DEG RADIAL AT 7500 FT AND REQUESTED A CLRNC TO SNA THROUGH LAX CLASS B AIRSPACE VIA THE SHORELINE TRANSITION. MUGU ADVISED US TO EXPECT RADAR VECTORS FOR THE TRANSITION AND TO NOTIFY THEM WHEN WE STARTED OUR DSCNT, WHICH WE DID AT THIS POINT. I BELIEVE WE WERE ALSO TOLD BY MUGU APCH TO MAINTAIN OUR HDG, BUT IT'S POSSIBLE THAT MY CFI IS THE ONE WHO ACTUALLY TOLD ME THIS AND NOT MUGU. SINCE THE FLOOR OF THE CLASS B AIRSPACE WAS 5000 FT, WE HELD AN INDICATED ALT OF APPROX 4600 FT, SO AS TO BE BELOW THE CLASS B AIRSPACE IN THE EVENT THAT WE WERE FURTHER S THAN WE THOUGHT. THE TOP OF THE BUR CLASS C AIRSPACE, WHICH WE WERE APCHING BUT WERE WAITING TO BE VECTORED AWAY FROM BY THE CTLR, IS 4800 FT. I WAS MORE CONCERNED WITH STAYING BELOW THE CLASS B AIRSPACE. PT MUGU APCH INFORMED US THAT THE SHORELINE WAS NOT AVAILABLE BUT TO EXPECT VECTORS FOR THE SFR TRANSITION INSTEAD. A FEW MINS LATER, MUGU APCH ADVISED US THAT WE COULDN'T HAVE THE SFR TRANSITION CLRNC, RADAR SVCS TERMINATED, SQUAWK 1200 AND CALL SOCAL. WE CONTACTED SOCAL. WHEN MY CFI AGAIN REQUESTED THE SFR TRANSITION, WE WERE ADVISED THAT WE WERE ON THE WRONG FREQ. I INITIATED A CLB AND A SLIGHT TURN TO THE N (APPROX 040 DEG HDG) TO ENSURE THAT WE WERE GOING UP OVER THE BUR CLASS C AIRSPACE AND NOT BREAKING THE 5000 FT FLOOR OF THE LAX CLASS B AIRSPACE. SOCAL WAS ADVISING A B737 OF AN ACFT SQUAWKING VFR NEARBY THAT HAD NO AUTH TO BE IN THE CLASS C AIRSPACE. I SAW THE B737 (ACFT Y) AT MY 10 O'CLOCK POS AND TURNED BACK TO A 075 DEG HDG. THERE WAS A DISTANCE BTWN THE 2 OF US (1-2 MI) AND WE WERE NOT ON A COLLISION COURSE. THE SOCAL CTLR WAS ASKING THE B737 IF IT HAD NEEDED TO TAKE ANY EVASIVE ACTION. THE B737 PLT ANSWERED IN THE NEGATIVE. MY ALTIMETER WAS READING 5100 FT WHILE THIS WAS HAPPENING. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WE ENCROACHED ON THE CLASS C AIRSPACE. HOWEVER, THE CTLR WAS OF A DIFFERENT OPINION. MY CFI THOUGHT IT ADVISABLE TO TURN N, STAY ABOVE THE CLASS C AIRSPACE. THIS INCIDENT WAS CAUSED BY THE POOR INTERACTION BTWN THE PT MUGU AND SOCAL CTLRS. I THINK THAT WE WERE ESSENTIALLY 'HUNG OUT TO DRY.' OUR SITUATIONAL AWARENESS WAS EXCELLENT. THE FACT THAT SOCAL RPTED US BUSTING THE CLASS C AIRSPACE TELLS ME THAT THE PT MUGU CTLR DEMONSTRATED A LACK OF CONCERN OVER THE SIT. I THINK PROBS LIKE THIS CAN BE AVOIDED IN THE FUTURE BY ENSURING THAT THE CTLRS SHOW A LITTLE MORE CONCERN FOR VFR FLT FOLLOWING PLTS BY PROMPTLY INFORMING THEM OF DEVS FROM THEIR EXPECTED CLRNCS AND GIVING THEM CORRECT INFO. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 472690: ONCE IT BECAME OBVIOUS THAT THE VFR CORRIDOR OPTION SUGGESTED BY SOCAL WAS NOT PASSABLE IN VFR WE STARTED TO DIAL BACK TO SECURE A BUR CLASS C CLRNC. HOWEVER, THE FREQ WAS COMPLETELY JAMMED AND WE WERE SIMPLY UNABLE TO GET A WORD IN EDGEWISE. BECAUSE THE TERMINAL CHART USES GND REFS (NOT RADIO AIDS) TO IDENT THE COMMON E/W NORTHERN BOUNDARY OF THE NORTHERN CLASS B AIRSPACE BOUNDARY/SOUTHERN BUR CLASS C BOUNDARY, IT WAS NOT IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO ASCERTAIN ON WHICH SIDE OF THE BOUNDARY WE WERE ON. THIS WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT, ON A SEBOUND VFR FLT THROUGH VENTURA THROUGH LOS ANGELES COUNTY, MUGU HAS GIVEN US FLT FOLLOWING DIRECTLY TO THE DOORSTEP OF THE NW LAS CLASS B AIRSPACE BOUNDARY, AND THEN FAILED OR REFUSED TO INITIATE A HDOF. THE TOTALITY OF CIRCUMSTANCES LEFT US BOXED IN, AND WITH THE LACK OF DEFINITION OF BUR'S CLASS C AIRSPACE BY NAVAID. WE WERE APPARENTLY ALREADY IN BUR'S CLASS C AIRSPACE BEFORE WE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO ESTABLISH 2-WAY RADIO COM. THIS LESSON HAS TAUGHT US THE PRUDENCE OF FILING IFR ON THESE SEBOUND FLTS (EVEN IN VFR CONDITIONS) TO ENSURE WE ARE NOT LEFT AT THE MERCY OF THE TRACON CTLRS' WHIMS CONCERNING PROVISIONS OF SVCS TO VFR ACFT.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.