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Air carrier B757 flight crew is vectored off the final approach course by lax controller and asked to sight a B747 turned in front of the B757. B757 flight crew cannot sight traffic due to WX and city light condition. Pilot calls facility to complain about incident.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 426645 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199901 |
| Day | Tue |
| Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | airport : lax |
| State Reference | CA |
| Altitude | msl bound lower : 5000 msl bound upper : 5000 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | IMC |
| Light | Night |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tower : orh |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | B757 Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Flight Phase | descent other |
| Route In Use | arrival other enroute : on vectors |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | B747 Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach descent other |
| Route In Use | arrival other enroute : on vectors |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : cfi pilot : flight engineer |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 140 flight time total : 21000 flight time type : 5000 |
| ASRS Report | 426645 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | other anomaly other |
| Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | other |
| Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
| Supplementary | |
| Air Traffic Incident | other |
Narrative:
While on final at lax for runway 24R, at approximately 10 mi from touchdown, approach control inserted a B747 (aircraft Y) ahead of our aircraft (aircraft X). To provide separation it was necessary to vector us off the approach (270 degree heading). This heading was held until we broke out into VMC conditions. Upon reporting in VMC, approach control asked if we had the preceding B747 in sight. It was not possible to pick out any aircraft in an environment where the observer is looking down into a highly lighted urban area. In discussing my unhappiness with the socal approach control supervisor, he admitted that he hadn't been on a night familiarization trip since air carrier Z was in business. That's at least 10 yrs! We were put in a very uncomfortable situation (transition from IMC to VMC on a heading diverging from the final approach course and runway, into the face of opposite direction downwind traffic which was causing our TCASII to be noisy, being expected to salvage an approach by seeing and identing an aircraft in an aircraft rich environment, over a sea of lights). All of this because the controller doesn't realize that aircraft identify is very difficult to impossible. Solution: night familiarization trips for controller.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: ACR B757 FLC IS VECTORED OFF THE FINAL APCH COURSE BY LAX CTLR AND ASKED TO SIGHT A B747 TURNED IN FRONT OF THE B757. B757 FLC CANNOT SIGHT TFC DUE TO WX AND CITY LIGHT CONDITION. PLT CALLS FACILITY TO COMPLAIN ABOUT INCIDENT.
Narrative: WHILE ON FINAL AT LAX FOR RWY 24R, AT APPROX 10 MI FROM TOUCHDOWN, APCH CTL INSERTED A B747 (ACFT Y) AHEAD OF OUR ACFT (ACFT X). TO PROVIDE SEPARATION IT WAS NECESSARY TO VECTOR US OFF THE APCH (270 DEG HDG). THIS HDG WAS HELD UNTIL WE BROKE OUT INTO VMC CONDITIONS. UPON RPTING IN VMC, APCH CTL ASKED IF WE HAD THE PRECEDING B747 IN SIGHT. IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE TO PICK OUT ANY ACFT IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THE OBSERVER IS LOOKING DOWN INTO A HIGHLY LIGHTED URBAN AREA. IN DISCUSSING MY UNHAPPINESS WITH THE SOCAL APCH CTL SUPVR, HE ADMITTED THAT HE HADN'T BEEN ON A NIGHT FAMILIARIZATION TRIP SINCE ACR Z WAS IN BUSINESS. THAT'S AT LEAST 10 YRS! WE WERE PUT IN A VERY UNCOMFORTABLE SIT (TRANSITION FROM IMC TO VMC ON A HDG DIVERGING FROM THE FINAL APCH COURSE AND RWY, INTO THE FACE OF OPPOSITE DIRECTION DOWNWIND TFC WHICH WAS CAUSING OUR TCASII TO BE NOISY, BEING EXPECTED TO SALVAGE AN APCH BY SEEING AND IDENTING AN ACFT IN AN ACFT RICH ENVIRONMENT, OVER A SEA OF LIGHTS). ALL OF THIS BECAUSE THE CTLR DOESN'T REALIZE THAT ACFT IDENT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO IMPOSSIBLE. SOLUTION: NIGHT FAMILIARIZATION TRIPS FOR CTLR.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.