Narrative:

A check of the sfo deicing machine showed the temperature of the deicing fluid to be 149 degrees. I have checked this machine several times since nov/94. The temperature has never been above 150 degrees. 2 sfo ramp supervisors have indicated that this was no problem. One indicated that sfo chief pilot had told him that there was no specific temperature desired for the md-80, indicated on a gauge on the deicer control panel, of 170-200 degrees F, should be obtained before the deicing operation begins on all aircraft. Hot fluid melts ice and snow, not glycol. The only function of the glycol in the deicing fluid solution is to lower the freezing point of the liquid left on the aircraft below the outside air temperature and aircraft surface temperature and to provide a limited holdover time. Given that, 1) applying cool fluid to the aircraft will not deice that aircraft. In certain circumstances it will result in more ice being formed. 2) detecting ice is much more difficult with deicing fluid on the aircraft. 3) the manufacturer of our deicing fluid specifically requires the deicing fluid to be heated to the recommended temperatures. 4) the required post deicing checks are as a matter of routine not being done. I find it absurd that all references to heating the deicing fluid to the desired temperatures would be disregarded. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: reporter stated that this matter has been discussed with his director of operations, chief pilot and the company's FAA poi. He also has past the complaint onto the employee's labor union. He has been aware of the deicing problems and complaining about them for the last 4 yrs. In the meantime, he was threatened by the director of operation to be terminated from the company if he caused any unnecessary delays due to deicing procedures. He was then given the job of the pilot representative for deicing procedures and met with the maintenance director to bring about appropriate changes. To date, the situation has probably become worse according to the reporter since the company turned over the physical deicing to ramp personnel from maintenance. Unlike maintenance, the ramp personnel are less knowledgeable and the turnover causes a lack of continuity with the experience level of the deicers. Therefore, at the present time, the fluid is never up to the recommended temperature and the ramp persons do not always make an appropriate inspection of the aircraft wing. The MD80 aircraft requires that there be no ice on top of the wing but some can be on the bottom. However, if the top is deiced, the bottom also has to be and this is not always happening. In addition, the fluid is sometimes refreezing on the surface and causing more ice harder and clrer than the thin frost that existed prior to the deicing process. He has become discouraged with trying to bring about an improvement and therefore, submitted this report hoping that something will be done.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: CAPT COMPLAINT ABOUT THE BELOW RECOMMENDED DEICING FLUID TEMP USED IN DEICING HIS ACFT.

Narrative: A CHK OF THE SFO DEICING MACHINE SHOWED THE TEMP OF THE DEICING FLUID TO BE 149 DEGS. I HAVE CHKED THIS MACHINE SEVERAL TIMES SINCE NOV/94. THE TEMP HAS NEVER BEEN ABOVE 150 DEGS. 2 SFO RAMP SUPVRS HAVE INDICATED THAT THIS WAS NO PROB. ONE INDICATED THAT SFO CHIEF PLT HAD TOLD HIM THAT THERE WAS NO SPECIFIC TEMP DESIRED FOR THE MD-80, INDICATED ON A GAUGE ON THE DEICER CTL PANEL, OF 170-200 DEGS F, SHOULD BE OBTAINED BEFORE THE DEICING OP BEGINS ON ALL ACFT. HOT FLUID MELTS ICE AND SNOW, NOT GLYCOL. THE ONLY FUNCTION OF THE GLYCOL IN THE DEICING FLUID SOLUTION IS TO LOWER THE FREEZING POINT OF THE LIQUID LEFT ON THE ACFT BELOW THE OUTSIDE AIR TEMP AND ACFT SURFACE TEMP AND TO PROVIDE A LIMITED HOLDOVER TIME. GIVEN THAT, 1) APPLYING COOL FLUID TO THE ACFT WILL NOT DEICE THAT ACFT. IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES IT WILL RESULT IN MORE ICE BEING FORMED. 2) DETECTING ICE IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT WITH DEICING FLUID ON THE ACFT. 3) THE MANUFACTURER OF OUR DEICING FLUID SPECIFICALLY REQUIRES THE DEICING FLUID TO BE HEATED TO THE RECOMMENDED TEMPS. 4) THE REQUIRED POST DEICING CHKS ARE AS A MATTER OF ROUTINE NOT BEING DONE. I FIND IT ABSURD THAT ALL REFS TO HEATING THE DEICING FLUID TO THE DESIRED TEMPS WOULD BE DISREGARDED. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR STATED THAT THIS MATTER HAS BEEN DISCUSSED WITH HIS DIRECTOR OF OPS, CHIEF PLT AND THE COMPANY'S FAA POI. HE ALSO HAS PAST THE COMPLAINT ONTO THE EMPLOYEE'S LABOR UNION. HE HAS BEEN AWARE OF THE DEICING PROBS AND COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM FOR THE LAST 4 YRS. IN THE MEANTIME, HE WAS THREATENED BY THE DIRECTOR OF OP TO BE TERMINATED FROM THE COMPANY IF HE CAUSED ANY UNNECESSARY DELAYS DUE TO DEICING PROCS. HE WAS THEN GIVEN THE JOB OF THE PLT REPRESENTATIVE FOR DEICING PROCS AND MET WITH THE MAINT DIRECTOR TO BRING ABOUT APPROPRIATE CHANGES. TO DATE, THE SIT HAS PROBABLY BECOME WORSE ACCORDING TO THE RPTR SINCE THE COMPANY TURNED OVER THE PHYSICAL DEICING TO RAMP PERSONNEL FROM MAINT. UNLIKE MAINT, THE RAMP PERSONNEL ARE LESS KNOWLEDGEABLE AND THE TURNOVER CAUSES A LACK OF CONTINUITY WITH THE EXPERIENCE LEVEL OF THE DEICERS. THEREFORE, AT THE PRESENT TIME, THE FLUID IS NEVER UP TO THE RECOMMENDED TEMP AND THE RAMP PERSONS DO NOT ALWAYS MAKE AN APPROPRIATE INSPECTION OF THE ACFT WING. THE MD80 ACFT REQUIRES THAT THERE BE NO ICE ON TOP OF THE WING BUT SOME CAN BE ON THE BOTTOM. HOWEVER, IF THE TOP IS DEICED, THE BOTTOM ALSO HAS TO BE AND THIS IS NOT ALWAYS HAPPENING. IN ADDITION, THE FLUID IS SOMETIMES REFREEZING ON THE SURFACE AND CAUSING MORE ICE HARDER AND CLRER THAN THE THIN FROST THAT EXISTED PRIOR TO THE DEICING PROCESS. HE HAS BECOME DISCOURAGED WITH TRYING TO BRING ABOUT AN IMPROVEMENT AND THEREFORE, SUBMITTED THIS RPT HOPING THAT SOMETHING WILL BE DONE.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.