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Air carrier medium large transport captain disputed an ATC clearance then failed to make an altitude crossing restriction during a STAR into lga.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 193842 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199111 |
| Day | Sun |
| Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | atc facility : sbj airport : lga |
| State Reference | NJ |
| Altitude | msl bound lower : 2700 msl bound upper : 7000 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | IMC |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : n90 |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
| Flight Phase | cruise other descent other |
| Route In Use | arrival star : star |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer pilot : cfi |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 300 flight time total : 15200 flight time type : 4000 |
| ASRS Report | 193842 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : atp |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met altitude deviation : undershoot non adherence : clearance other anomaly other anomaly other |
| Independent Detector | other controllera other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | none taken : anomaly accepted |
| Consequence | Other |
| Supplementary | |
| Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
| Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
| Situations | |
| ATC Facility | procedure or policy : unspecified |
Narrative:
Inbound to lga, on the milton STAR, the ny approach controller assigned us a speed reduction of 190 KTS. I replied that I desired to maintain 210 KTS, as we were still 31 NM from the airport, and I wanted to keep from configuring the aircraft until a min of 20 mi from the airport so south to save fuel (clean act concept). We were forced to reduce to 190 KTS. After the controller further explained she would have to 'pull us out of the arrival sequence' if we did not comply. The aim says that speed adjustments below 210 KTS more than 20 NM from the airport are to be assigned only with 'pilot concurrence.' further, speed adjustments below 170 KTS are also only to be assigned with 'pilot concurrence', and once an approach clearance is issued no further specific speed assignments will be issued by ATC. After we were 'cleared for the ILS to runway 04 at lga', the controller asked us to cross the greene intersection (11.1 DME on the ILS) as close to 2700 ft MSL as possible. I was uncomfortable 'ducking under' the GS, 3 mi in trail of a jet ahead of us, and I initially thought that she meant 2700 ft or above, till crossing the greene intersection (11.1 DME). She meant as close to 2700 ft as possible. This was difficult to do at our assigned speed of 170 KTS. At greene, we were told to reduce further to our min approach speed (we crossed greene at 3000 ft, 11.1 DME). Recommendation: atl should not reduce jet aircraft below the min 'clean' maneuvering speed until absolutely necessary (suggest no sooner than 15 mi from a course directly en route to the runway on an approach). This will save a tremendous amount of fuel; also, suggest that ATC reread the airman's information manual, reference speed assignments for ATC aircraft in the terminal area. I would much rather hold than 'dirty-up' early, unnecessarily. Ps, also, please keep jet aircraft as high as feasible and use a 3 degree GS descent.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: ACR MLG CAPT DISPUTED AN ATC CLRNC THEN FAILED TO MAKE AN ALT XING RESTRICTION DURING A STAR INTO LGA.
Narrative: INBOUND TO LGA, ON THE MILTON STAR, THE NY APCH CTLR ASSIGNED US A SPD REDUCTION OF 190 KTS. I REPLIED THAT I DESIRED TO MAINTAIN 210 KTS, AS WE WERE STILL 31 NM FROM THE ARPT, AND I WANTED TO KEEP FROM CONFIGURING THE ACFT UNTIL A MIN OF 20 MI FROM THE ARPT SO S TO SAVE FUEL (CLEAN ACT CONCEPT). WE WERE FORCED TO REDUCE TO 190 KTS. AFTER THE CTLR FURTHER EXPLAINED SHE WOULD HAVE TO 'PULL US OUT OF THE ARR SEQUENCE' IF WE DID NOT COMPLY. THE AIM SAYS THAT SPD ADJUSTMENTS BELOW 210 KTS MORE THAN 20 NM FROM THE ARPT ARE TO BE ASSIGNED ONLY WITH 'PLT CONCURRENCE.' FURTHER, SPD ADJUSTMENTS BELOW 170 KTS ARE ALSO ONLY TO BE ASSIGNED WITH 'PLT CONCURRENCE', AND ONCE AN APCH CLRNC IS ISSUED NO FURTHER SPECIFIC SPD ASSIGNMENTS WILL BE ISSUED BY ATC. AFTER WE WERE 'CLRED FOR THE ILS TO RWY 04 AT LGA', THE CTLR ASKED US TO CROSS THE GREENE INTXN (11.1 DME ON THE ILS) AS CLOSE TO 2700 FT MSL AS POSSIBLE. I WAS UNCOMFORTABLE 'DUCKING UNDER' THE GS, 3 MI IN TRAIL OF A JET AHEAD OF US, AND I INITIALLY THOUGHT THAT SHE MEANT 2700 FT OR ABOVE, TILL XING THE GREENE INTXN (11.1 DME). SHE MEANT AS CLOSE TO 2700 FT AS POSSIBLE. THIS WAS DIFFICULT TO DO AT OUR ASSIGNED SPD OF 170 KTS. AT GREENE, WE WERE TOLD TO REDUCE FURTHER TO OUR MIN APCH SPD (WE CROSSED GREENE AT 3000 FT, 11.1 DME). RECOMMENDATION: ATL SHOULD NOT REDUCE JET ACFT BELOW THE MIN 'CLEAN' MANEUVERING SPD UNTIL ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY (SUGGEST NO SOONER THAN 15 MI FROM A COURSE DIRECTLY ENRTE TO THE RWY ON AN APCH). THIS WILL SAVE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF FUEL; ALSO, SUGGEST THAT ATC REREAD THE AIRMAN'S INFO MANUAL, REF SPD ASSIGNMENTS FOR ATC ACFT IN THE TERMINAL AREA. I WOULD MUCH RATHER HOLD THAN 'DIRTY-UP' EARLY, UNNECESSARILY. PS, ALSO, PLEASE KEEP JET ACFT AS HIGH AS FEASIBLE AND USE A 3 DEG GS DSCNT.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.