Air carrier large transport undershoots crossing restriction in descent.

Attributes
ACN	136501
Time
Date	199002
Day	Mon
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	atc facility : omn airport : orl
State Reference	FL
Altitude	msl bound lower : 12000 msl bound upper : 15000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	artcc : zjx tower : ord
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Large Transport, Low Wing, 3 Turbojet Eng
Flight Phase	descent other
Route In Use	arrival star : star
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 210 flight time total : 5500 flight time type : 600
ASRS Report	136501
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Events
Anomaly	altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met altitude deviation : undershoot non adherence : clearance
Independent Detector	other controllera other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	none taken : insufficient time
Consequence	Other
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	Pilot Deviation

Narrative:

We were given a clearance to cross lamma at 12000', no speed restriction, north of ormond beach and the captain began his descent. We were running the descent/approach checklist when the controller asked if we were going to make the crossing ok. The captain said to me 'yes,' which is what I told the controller. We were approximately 10 NM south of ormond beach when he called us. We were in a normal cruise descent of 320 KTS/3000 FPM at the time. I then asked the captain if he realized he was to cross lamma at 12000'. He said 'I thought he said bitho at 12.' by this time we had crossed lamma about 3000' high (15000' MSL). The jax controller made no mention of this--neither did we--and went on to turn us over to orl approach just 1 or 2 mins later. Although I feel in this case there was no compromise to safety, in other cases it might. I also was willing to tell the controller we weren't going to make the crossing altitude, the captain expressed his desire to not tell him. This brings up the on-going question of when you (as first officer) override the captain's decision. I would not hesitate to do so in a life-threatening situation, however the point is when are you no longer in a gray area and into the black and white?

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: ACR LGT UNDERSHOOTS CROSSING RESTRICTION IN DESCENT.

Narrative: WE WERE GIVEN A CLRNC TO CROSS LAMMA AT 12000', NO SPD RESTRICTION, N OF ORMOND BEACH AND THE CAPT BEGAN HIS DSCNT. WE WERE RUNNING THE DSCNT/APCH CHKLIST WHEN THE CTLR ASKED IF WE WERE GOING TO MAKE THE XING OK. THE CAPT SAID TO ME 'YES,' WHICH IS WHAT I TOLD THE CTLR. WE WERE APPROX 10 NM S OF ORMOND BEACH WHEN HE CALLED US. WE WERE IN A NORMAL CRUISE DSCNT OF 320 KTS/3000 FPM AT THE TIME. I THEN ASKED THE CAPT IF HE REALIZED HE WAS TO CROSS LAMMA AT 12000'. HE SAID 'I THOUGHT HE SAID BITHO AT 12.' BY THIS TIME WE HAD CROSSED LAMMA ABOUT 3000' HIGH (15000' MSL). THE JAX CTLR MADE NO MENTION OF THIS--NEITHER DID WE--AND WENT ON TO TURN US OVER TO ORL APCH JUST 1 OR 2 MINS LATER. ALTHOUGH I FEEL IN THIS CASE THERE WAS NO COMPROMISE TO SAFETY, IN OTHER CASES IT MIGHT. I ALSO WAS WILLING TO TELL THE CTLR WE WEREN'T GOING TO MAKE THE XING ALT, THE CAPT EXPRESSED HIS DESIRE TO NOT TELL HIM. THIS BRINGS UP THE ON-GOING QUESTION OF WHEN YOU (AS F/O) OVERRIDE THE CAPT'S DECISION. I WOULD NOT HESITATE TO DO SO IN A LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION, HOWEVER THE POINT IS WHEN ARE YOU NO LONGER IN A GRAY AREA AND INTO THE BLACK AND WHITE?

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.