|37000 Feet||Browse and search NASA's
Aviation Safety Reporting System
|Local Time Of Day||0601 To 1200|
|Locale Reference||airport : acv|
|Altitude||agl bound lower : 0|
agl bound upper : 0
|Operator||common carrier : air carrier|
|Make Model Name||Light Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turboprop Eng|
|Flight Phase||climbout : takeoff|
ground other : taxi
|Affiliation||company : air carrier|
|Function||flight crew : captain|
oversight : pic
|Qualification||pilot : atp|
pilot : cfi
|Experience||flight time last 90 days : 250|
flight time total : 5000
flight time type : 250
|Affiliation||company : air carrier|
|Function||flight crew : first officer|
|Qualification||pilot : commercial|
pilot : instrument
|Anomaly||other anomaly other|
|Independent Detector||other flight crewa|
|Resolutory Action||none taken : anomaly accepted|
|Primary Problem||ATC Human Performance|
|Air Traffic Incident||other|
|ATC Facility||procedure or policy : unspecified|
The 2 specific incidents described below are indicative or normal operations at acv during IMC conditions. One specialist is particularly bad. While on the ILS 32 to acv, I heard acv FSS tell another company aircraft 'taxi into position and hold as soon as company (me) crosses the threshold so we can get you right out.' the captain of the other aircraft asked acv FSS if they had their clearance yet. They were told that 'we're working on it.' as we crossed the threshold, before we had made ground contact, acv FSS announced 'light transport X we're cancelling you out, light transport Z cleared to...' he then added 'clearance void if not off in 30 seconds.' when we taxied out for the next leg, acv FSS asked us if we could be off in 2 mins or less. This was less than 30 seconds into our taxi. We told them probably not. 1-1 1/2 mins later we told him we were ready to copy our clearance. He then gave us the clearance with a void time in 60 seconds. 60 seconds later our F/a was just sitting down. Acv FSS cancelled our clearance at that point. So, we asked him to get us a new time. He almost immediately responded that we now had another 30 seconds to get off. All the pilots I talk to request that they be given the clearance with a hold for release. Acv FSS always says they will try, but ZSE won't do that. I've talked to ZSE and they've said that they don't withhold issuing the clearance because of a release. I find it frustrating and unsafe to be pushed like this. We need time to set up the radios and plan our departure. West/O the clearance we can only guess--and we are good guessers (fortunately)! My points are these: pilots need time to set up for departure--especially in IMC. 30-60 seconds is not enough time to safely set up for departure and depart. An FSS cannot nor should they try to clear an aircraft to 'taxi into position and hold.' an FSS must wait for the pilot's call cancelling IFR before relaying the message to ATC. However, when I'm solidly on the ground and am in no danger of a go around, I don't mind. I have the feeling that the staff of acv FSS, especially the one specialist, are frustrated ATC controllers.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: ACR LTT COMPLAINT ABOUT ATC HANDLING OPERATING IN AND OUT OF ACV.
Narrative: THE 2 SPECIFIC INCIDENTS DESCRIBED BELOW ARE INDICATIVE OR NORMAL OPS AT ACV DURING IMC CONDITIONS. ONE SPECIALIST IS PARTICULARLY BAD. WHILE ON THE ILS 32 TO ACV, I HEARD ACV FSS TELL ANOTHER COMPANY ACFT 'TAXI INTO POS AND HOLD AS SOON AS COMPANY (ME) CROSSES THE THRESHOLD SO WE CAN GET YOU RIGHT OUT.' THE CAPT OF THE OTHER ACFT ASKED ACV FSS IF THEY HAD THEIR CLRNC YET. THEY WERE TOLD THAT 'WE'RE WORKING ON IT.' AS WE CROSSED THE THRESHOLD, BEFORE WE HAD MADE GND CONTACT, ACV FSS ANNOUNCED 'LTT X WE'RE CANCELLING YOU OUT, LTT Z CLRED TO...' HE THEN ADDED 'CLRNC VOID IF NOT OFF IN 30 SECS.' WHEN WE TAXIED OUT FOR THE NEXT LEG, ACV FSS ASKED US IF WE COULD BE OFF IN 2 MINS OR LESS. THIS WAS LESS THAN 30 SECS INTO OUR TAXI. WE TOLD THEM PROBABLY NOT. 1-1 1/2 MINS LATER WE TOLD HIM WE WERE READY TO COPY OUR CLRNC. HE THEN GAVE US THE CLRNC WITH A VOID TIME IN 60 SECS. 60 SECS LATER OUR F/A WAS JUST SITTING DOWN. ACV FSS CANCELLED OUR CLRNC AT THAT POINT. SO, WE ASKED HIM TO GET US A NEW TIME. HE ALMOST IMMEDIATELY RESPONDED THAT WE NOW HAD ANOTHER 30 SECS TO GET OFF. ALL THE PLTS I TALK TO REQUEST THAT THEY BE GIVEN THE CLRNC WITH A HOLD FOR RELEASE. ACV FSS ALWAYS SAYS THEY WILL TRY, BUT ZSE WON'T DO THAT. I'VE TALKED TO ZSE AND THEY'VE SAID THAT THEY DON'T WITHHOLD ISSUING THE CLRNC BECAUSE OF A RELEASE. I FIND IT FRUSTRATING AND UNSAFE TO BE PUSHED LIKE THIS. WE NEED TIME TO SET UP THE RADIOS AND PLAN OUR DEP. W/O THE CLRNC WE CAN ONLY GUESS--AND WE ARE GOOD GUESSERS (FORTUNATELY)! MY POINTS ARE THESE: PLTS NEED TIME TO SET UP FOR DEP--ESPECIALLY IN IMC. 30-60 SECS IS NOT ENOUGH TIME TO SAFELY SET UP FOR DEP AND DEPART. AN FSS CANNOT NOR SHOULD THEY TRY TO CLR AN ACFT TO 'TAXI INTO POS AND HOLD.' AN FSS MUST WAIT FOR THE PLT'S CALL CANCELLING IFR BEFORE RELAYING THE MESSAGE TO ATC. HOWEVER, WHEN I'M SOLIDLY ON THE GND AND AM IN NO DANGER OF A GO AROUND, I DON'T MIND. I HAVE THE FEELING THAT THE STAFF OF ACV FSS, ESPECIALLY THE ONE SPECIALIST, ARE FRUSTRATED ATC CTLRS.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of August 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.