Narrative:

During preflight; I observed that the wings had frost on the top; and frost with ice accumulation on the underneath of the wing. This frost was due to cold soaked fuel lowering the temperature of the wing surface to below freezing; as is common on the A300. The ice accumulation on the underneath of the wing was due to moisture/condensation on the wing running back to the point that the frost developed on the underneath; and was refreezing into ice veins approximately 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick; approximately 6 to 12 inches in length. We contacted ramp deice personnel to request deicing of both top and bottom of the wings.the deice coordinator told us that he would come to the aircraft to 'determine our needs'. Upon coming to the cockpit; he said; 'it is melting pretty good out there'. Indeed; the OAT and fuel temps were such that given enough time; the frost and ice would have melted. However; given our departure time; we did not have time enough to wait. I instructed him that we needed to spray both the top and underneath of the wing; due to the ice accumulations. He told me that 'we don't spray under the wing'. To this I informed him that they needed to remove the ice under the wing. Further discussion was needed to convey the importance of spraying the underneath of the wings to remove the ice. We were informed that his deice truck was at another ramp 'dealing with a similar situation' and there could be a delay with the truck arriving to the aircraft.as I was shutting the main cargo door; this same deice coordinator was standing on the airstairs. He proceeded to tell me that there was no frost or ice on the aircraft; in complete contradiction of my personal observation. Again; I told him that the wings needed to be deiced; both top and bottom. He further asserted that because the fuselage had only condensation; not frost; that the wings could not have frost on them. Again; I simply instructed him to deice; with type 1 fluid; the top and bottom of the wings.following a lengthy delay in the arrival of the deice truck; they proceeded as I requested. My concern stems from the deice coordinator's lack of understanding of fars; fom; aom; and our company's deice procedures which make it very clear that the captain is responsible for the deicing of the aircraft; prior to flight. His continued assertion that there was no frost or ice on the wings; when I personally observed this frost and ice; leads me to be concerned with any certification or verification that my aircraft may be clear and free of frost and ice; during normal deicing operations; when the crew can not personally verify the conditions of the wings.this individual was needlessly combative; and argumentative in his tone and in his repeated assertion that the wings were free from frost and ice; when I could clearly observe that frost and ice were present. It seems that this deice coordinator; and perhaps those he supervises; need further training on the fars; fom; aom; and [company] deice procedures to ensure that he understands that the captain is to make the determination of deicing requirements/needs; not the deice coordinator. Further; his combative/argumentative tone and attitude was such that it made it more difficult to convey our deicing needs for this flight.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: An A300 Captain described a confrontation with the ground de-icing supervisor over the need for and manner of application of deicing measures prior to departure.

Narrative: During preflight; I observed that the wings had frost on the top; and frost with ice accumulation on the underneath of the wing. This frost was due to cold soaked fuel lowering the temperature of the wing surface to below freezing; as is common on the A300. The ice accumulation on the underneath of the wing was due to moisture/condensation on the wing running back to the point that the frost developed on the underneath; and was refreezing into ice veins approximately 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick; approximately 6 to 12 inches in length. We contacted Ramp deice personnel to request deicing of both top and bottom of the wings.The deice coordinator told us that he would come to the aircraft to 'determine our needs'. Upon coming to the cockpit; he said; 'it is melting pretty good out there'. Indeed; the OAT and fuel temps were such that given enough time; the frost and ice would have melted. However; given our departure time; we did not have time enough to wait. I instructed him that we needed to spray both the top and underneath of the wing; due to the ice accumulations. He told me that 'we don't spray under the wing'. To this I informed him that they needed to remove the ice under the wing. Further discussion was needed to convey the importance of spraying the underneath of the wings to remove the ice. We were informed that his deice truck was at another ramp 'dealing with a similar situation' and there could be a delay with the truck arriving to the aircraft.As I was shutting the main cargo door; this same deice coordinator was standing on the airstairs. He proceeded to tell me that there was no frost or ice on the aircraft; in complete contradiction of my personal observation. Again; I told him that the wings needed to be deiced; both top and bottom. He further asserted that because the fuselage had only condensation; not frost; that the wings could not have frost on them. Again; I simply instructed him to deice; with Type 1 fluid; the top and bottom of the wings.Following a lengthy delay in the arrival of the deice truck; they proceeded as I requested. My concern stems from the deice coordinator's lack of understanding of FARs; FOM; AOM; and our company's deice procedures which make it very clear that the Captain is responsible for the deicing of the aircraft; prior to flight. His continued assertion that there was no frost or ice on the wings; when I personally observed this frost and ice; leads me to be concerned with any certification or verification that my aircraft may be clear and free of frost and ice; during normal deicing operations; when the crew can not personally verify the conditions of the wings.This individual was needlessly combative; and argumentative in his tone and in his repeated assertion that the wings were free from frost and ice; when I could CLEARLY observe that frost and ice were present. It seems that this deice coordinator; and perhaps those he supervises; need further training on the FARs; FOM; AOM; and [Company] deice procedures to ensure that he understands that the Captain is to make the determination of deicing requirements/needs; not the deice coordinator. Further; his combative/argumentative tone and attitude was such that it made it more difficult to convey our deicing needs for this flight.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of April 2012 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.