B737 flight crew receives pre departure clearance that does not include a transition on the GRNPA1 R...

Attributes
ACN	783859
Time
Date	200804
Local Time Of Day	1801 To 2400
Place
Locale Reference	atc facility : l30.tracon
State Reference	NV
Altitude	msl single value : 12000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Dusk
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : l30.tracon
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	B737-300
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Navigation In Use	other
Route In Use	arrival star : granpa
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 240
ASRS Report	783859
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 179 flight time type : 18500
ASRS Report	783867
Events
Anomaly	non adherence : published procedure non adherence : clearance other anomaly
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	controller : issued new clearance
Supplementary
Problem Areas	Flight Crew Human Performance ATC Human Performance Company
Primary Problem	Ambiguous

Narrative:

There are really 2 events. First; our clearance we received on the ground. I was filed and cleared via pre departure clearance as '...beryl ksino GRNPA1.las.' about 10 mi from ksino we were given the clearance to cross luxor at 12000 ft 250 KTS. However; our clearance was to go ksino grnpa. Luxor is only part of the arrival if a transition was given (such as mlf.GRNPA1). In our case; it was not. Since luxor was not on our filed or cleared route; we queried the controller. He stated that luxor is on the GRNPA1. According to my commercial chart plate; the GRNPA1 arrival starts at grnpa. So luxor is not on the GRNPA1 arrival unless you are cleared via a transition. We entered luxor in the computer and flew ksino luxor grnpa because that is what the controller wanted us to do. Second; a short time later; we were cleared to keep our speed up; fly 280 KTS or greater in our descent to luxor but cross luxor at 250 KTS and 12000 ft. However; ATC cleared us on a heading prior to luxor and cleared us down to a lower altitude (I believe 10000 ft). So; since we never crossed luxor; we kept our speed at 280 KTS following our clearance. ATC asked us what our speed was after we were on the heading for a while and we said 280 KTS. He said that he expected us to be at 250 KTS. If that was the case; I believe he should have cleared us fly heading XXX; with a speed. Once he cleared us on a heading away from luxor and to a new altitude; I believe he negated his speed restr at luxor. I think ATC needs to be very specific in their clearance. It should not be left to interpretation as it was tonight. Also; our clearance should be looked at with regards to luxor. If I am wrong then somebody needs to re-educate me on how to read a commercial chart arrival plate. Our clearance from las approach not complying with our clearance that we received on the ground. Also; ATC giving us an amended clearance on the arrival and still expecting us to comply with the old clearance.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: B737 FLT CREW RECEIVES PDC THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE A TRANSITION ON THE GRNPA1 RNAV ARRIVAL INTO LAS TO THE ZLA CONTROLLER'S SURPRISE.

Narrative: THERE ARE REALLY 2 EVENTS. FIRST; OUR CLRNC WE RECEIVED ON THE GROUND. I WAS FILED AND CLRED VIA PDC AS '...BERYL KSINO GRNPA1.LAS.' ABOUT 10 MI FROM KSINO WE WERE GIVEN THE CLRNC TO CROSS LUXOR AT 12000 FT 250 KTS. HOWEVER; OUR CLRNC WAS TO GO KSINO GRNPA. LUXOR IS ONLY PART OF THE ARR IF A TRANSITION WAS GIVEN (SUCH AS MLF.GRNPA1). IN OUR CASE; IT WAS NOT. SINCE LUXOR WAS NOT ON OUR FILED OR CLRED RTE; WE QUERIED THE CTLR. HE STATED THAT LUXOR IS ON THE GRNPA1. ACCORDING TO MY COMMERCIAL CHART PLATE; THE GRNPA1 ARR STARTS AT GRNPA. SO LUXOR IS NOT ON THE GRNPA1 ARR UNLESS YOU ARE CLRED VIA A TRANSITION. WE ENTERED LUXOR IN THE COMPUTER AND FLEW KSINO LUXOR GRNPA BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE CTLR WANTED US TO DO. SECOND; A SHORT TIME LATER; WE WERE CLRED TO KEEP OUR SPD UP; FLY 280 KTS OR GREATER IN OUR DSCNT TO LUXOR BUT CROSS LUXOR AT 250 KTS AND 12000 FT. HOWEVER; ATC CLRED US ON A HDG PRIOR TO LUXOR AND CLRED US DOWN TO A LOWER ALT (I BELIEVE 10000 FT). SO; SINCE WE NEVER CROSSED LUXOR; WE KEPT OUR SPD AT 280 KTS FOLLOWING OUR CLRNC. ATC ASKED US WHAT OUR SPD WAS AFTER WE WERE ON THE HDG FOR A WHILE AND WE SAID 280 KTS. HE SAID THAT HE EXPECTED US TO BE AT 250 KTS. IF THAT WAS THE CASE; I BELIEVE HE SHOULD HAVE CLRED US FLY HDG XXX; WITH A SPD. ONCE HE CLRED US ON A HDG AWAY FROM LUXOR AND TO A NEW ALT; I BELIEVE HE NEGATED HIS SPD RESTR AT LUXOR. I THINK ATC NEEDS TO BE VERY SPECIFIC IN THEIR CLRNC. IT SHOULD NOT BE LEFT TO INTERP AS IT WAS TONIGHT. ALSO; OUR CLRNC SHOULD BE LOOKED AT WITH REGARDS TO LUXOR. IF I AM WRONG THEN SOMEBODY NEEDS TO RE-EDUCATE ME ON HOW TO READ A COMMERCIAL CHART ARR PLATE. OUR CLRNC FROM LAS APCH NOT COMPLYING WITH OUR CLRNC THAT WE RECEIVED ON THE GND. ALSO; ATC GIVING US AN AMENDED CLRNC ON THE ARR AND STILL EXPECTING US TO COMPLY WITH THE OLD CLRNC.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of May 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.

B737 flight crew receives pre departure clearance that does not include a transition on the GRNPA1 RNAV arrival into las to the ZLA controller's surprise.