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CRJ200 captain elects to wait for WX change when both sn and fzfg are reported and not covered by deicing work sheet.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 777832 |
| Time | |
| Date | 200803 |
| Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | airport : zzz.airport |
| State Reference | US |
| Altitude | agl single value : 0 |
| Environment | |
| Weather Elements | Snow Fog other |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | Regional Jet 200 ER&LR |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Flight Phase | ground : taxi |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 6100 flight time type : 850 |
| ASRS Report | 777832 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 6500 flight time type : 5000 |
| ASRS Report | 777651 |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | non adherence : company policies |
| Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | other |
| Consequence | other |
| Supplementary | |
| Problem Areas | Company Weather Flight Crew Human Performance |
| Primary Problem | Ambiguous |
Narrative:
Taxiing out to deice we as a crew reviewed the WX and the holdover times for type 4 fluid. We had WX of 1/2 SM; -3 degrees C; sn fzfg. Due to our guidance on the holdover chart; we cannot dispatch with multiple conditions. We called dispatch to tell them we were going to wait for the conditions to change before we deiced and took off. Dispatch told us that fzfg was a visibility value and not precipitation. I disagreed after being on hold for a short time. I was told to contact the chief pilot. The chief pilot told me that when there are multiple conditions you use the most restrictive holdover time. I disagreed with him and explained about type 4 dilution and to contact program manager because I have worked with him in the past on this issue. When he got back to me; he said that he talked to the program manager; and he was going to back me up 100%. After about 10 mins; the dispatcher called me back and said that he was going to get director of operations on the phone and see what he had to say. After a few more mins; the dispatcher said director of operations told him that we were good to go with multiple conditions. I again disagreed with the dispatcher and told him of my intentions to wait for the conditions to change. My main concern for safety in this matter is that when there are multiple conditions of freezing; we don't have type 4 holdover times. While I was waiting for the conditions to change I must have seen more than 20 planes take off. This tells me that crews are not aware of the type 4 limitations. Also I would like to add that if I had been a brand new captain; that I might have been easily intimidated by the fact that I had a numerous amount of people pressuring me to take this flight. Shortly after I heard there was a conference call concerning my flight; it just so happens that the fzfg turned into br which made us legal to depart.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: CRJ200 CAPT ELECTS TO WAIT FOR WX CHANGE WHEN BOTH SN AND FZFG ARE REPORTED AND NOT COVERED BY DEICING WORK SHEET.
Narrative: TAXIING OUT TO DEICE WE AS A CREW REVIEWED THE WX AND THE HOLDOVER TIMES FOR TYPE 4 FLUID. WE HAD WX OF 1/2 SM; -3 DEGS C; SN FZFG. DUE TO OUR GUIDANCE ON THE HOLDOVER CHART; WE CANNOT DISPATCH WITH MULTIPLE CONDITIONS. WE CALLED DISPATCH TO TELL THEM WE WERE GOING TO WAIT FOR THE CONDITIONS TO CHANGE BEFORE WE DEICED AND TOOK OFF. DISPATCH TOLD US THAT FZFG WAS A VISIBILITY VALUE AND NOT PRECIP. I DISAGREED AFTER BEING ON HOLD FOR A SHORT TIME. I WAS TOLD TO CONTACT THE CHIEF PLT. THE CHIEF PLT TOLD ME THAT WHEN THERE ARE MULTIPLE CONDITIONS YOU USE THE MOST RESTRICTIVE HOLDOVER TIME. I DISAGREED WITH HIM AND EXPLAINED ABOUT TYPE 4 DILUTION AND TO CONTACT PROGRAM MGR BECAUSE I HAVE WORKED WITH HIM IN THE PAST ON THIS ISSUE. WHEN HE GOT BACK TO ME; HE SAID THAT HE TALKED TO THE PROGRAM MGR; AND HE WAS GOING TO BACK ME UP 100%. AFTER ABOUT 10 MINS; THE DISPATCHER CALLED ME BACK AND SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO GET DIRECTOR OF OPS ON THE PHONE AND SEE WHAT HE HAD TO SAY. AFTER A FEW MORE MINS; THE DISPATCHER SAID DIRECTOR OF OPS TOLD HIM THAT WE WERE GOOD TO GO WITH MULTIPLE CONDITIONS. I AGAIN DISAGREED WITH THE DISPATCHER AND TOLD HIM OF MY INTENTIONS TO WAIT FOR THE CONDITIONS TO CHANGE. MY MAIN CONCERN FOR SAFETY IN THIS MATTER IS THAT WHEN THERE ARE MULTIPLE CONDITIONS OF FREEZING; WE DON'T HAVE TYPE 4 HOLDOVER TIMES. WHILE I WAS WAITING FOR THE CONDITIONS TO CHANGE I MUST HAVE SEEN MORE THAN 20 PLANES TAKE OFF. THIS TELLS ME THAT CREWS ARE NOT AWARE OF THE TYPE 4 LIMITATIONS. ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THAT IF I HAD BEEN A BRAND NEW CAPT; THAT I MIGHT HAVE BEEN EASILY INTIMIDATED BY THE FACT THAT I HAD A NUMEROUS AMOUNT OF PEOPLE PRESSURING ME TO TAKE THIS FLT. SHORTLY AFTER I HEARD THERE WAS A CONFERENCE CALL CONCERNING MY FLT; IT JUST SO HAPPENS THAT THE FZFG TURNED INTO BR WHICH MADE US LEGAL TO DEPART.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of May 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.