|37000 Feet||Browse and search NASA's
Aviation Safety Reporting System
|Local Time Of Day||1201 To 1800|
|Locale Reference||airport : atl.airport|
|Controlling Facilities||artcc : ztl.artcc|
|Operator||common carrier : air carrier|
|Make Model Name||B737-700|
|Operating Under FAR Part||Part 121|
|Flight Phase||descent : approach|
|Route In Use||arrival star : la grange|
|Affiliation||company : air carrier|
|Function||flight crew : first officer|
|Qualification||pilot : atp|
|Affiliation||company : air carrier|
|Function||flight crew : captain|
oversight : pic
|Anomaly||altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met|
non adherence : published procedure
non adherence : clearance
|Independent Detector||other controllera|
|Resolutory Action||controller : issued new clearance|
|Consequence||faa : reviewed incident with flight crew|
|Problem Areas||Flight Crew Human Performance|
Chart Or Publication
ATC Human Performance
|Primary Problem||Chart Or Publication|
|Air Traffic Incident||Pilot Deviation|
|Chart||star : la grange|
I was the non flying pilot. We were on the la grange arrival into atl. We thought we were given a crossing restriction of tiroe at 12;000 feet and 250 knots. This is what is shown to expect on the arrival chart. Approaching honie intersection the controller asked us if we were going to make honie at 12;000 feet. He advised us that we were given honie at 12;000 feet and 250 knots. The controller then handed us off to atl approach. Atl approach then gave us a clearance to descend to 12;000 feet; which we complied with. Based on the arrival chart; the 'expect' clearance is tiroe at 12;000 feet. This was our mindset approaching atl. This crossing point has been changed in a NOTAM but I have been given the crossing restriction at both intersections several different times. This NOTAM is also buried in the middle of about 3 pages of very meaningless NOTAMS. A personal pet peeve of mine has been the inordinate amount of trivial NOTAMS we receive that actually surround the very important ones; such as new crossing restrictions and runway closures. This new crossing restriction should have been put into the new chart revision cycle about 2 months ago if it was intended to be used. Please do not plan new crossing restrictions and/or put them into use until they are posted in the charts. This makes things very confusing when a new restriction is being used that conflicts with the chart.supplemental information from reporter acn 765528: we were given cross tiroe at FL140. Next we were cleared direct honie and the lgc arrival. As we crossed honie the controller said since you did not make honie at FL140 cross tiroe at FL120. I replied that we were to cross tiroe at FL140 and would expidite to FL120. The lgc arrival in atl states expect tiroe at FL140 for west landings.callback conversation with reporter 765547 revealed the following information: the captain felt this was primarily a failed communication issue. He stated that the flight crew knew there was a NOTAM but had forgotten to program the FMC in concert with the NOTAM changes. The captain also stressed the difficulty in retrieving pertinent information from the voluminous and dated NOTAM presentation.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: MISCOMMUNICATION AND UNFAMILIARITY WITH FDC NOTAMS FOR ATL RESULT IN ALT DEV ON LA GRANGE STAR FOR ACR FLT CREW.
Narrative: I WAS THE NON FLYING PILOT. WE WERE ON THE LA GRANGE ARRIVAL INTO ATL. WE THOUGHT WE WERE GIVEN A CROSSING RESTRICTION OF TIROE AT 12;000 FEET AND 250 KNOTS. THIS IS WHAT IS SHOWN TO EXPECT ON THE ARRIVAL CHART. APPROACHING HONIE INTERSECTION THE CONTROLLER ASKED US IF WE WERE GOING TO MAKE HONIE AT 12;000 FEET. HE ADVISED US THAT WE WERE GIVEN HONIE AT 12;000 FEET AND 250 KNOTS. THE CONTROLLER THEN HANDED US OFF TO ATL APPROACH. ATL APPROACH THEN GAVE US A CLEARANCE TO DESCEND TO 12;000 FEET; WHICH WE COMPLIED WITH. BASED ON THE ARRIVAL CHART; THE 'EXPECT' CLEARANCE IS TIROE AT 12;000 FEET. THIS WAS OUR MINDSET APPROACHING ATL. THIS CROSSING POINT HAS BEEN CHANGED IN A NOTAM BUT I HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE CROSSING RESTRICTION AT BOTH INTERSECTIONS SEVERAL DIFFERENT TIMES. THIS NOTAM IS ALSO BURIED IN THE MIDDLE OF ABOUT 3 PAGES OF VERY MEANINGLESS NOTAMS. A PERSONAL PET PEEVE OF MINE HAS BEEN THE INORDINATE AMOUNT OF TRIVIAL NOTAMS WE RECEIVE THAT ACTUALLY SURROUND THE VERY IMPORTANT ONES; SUCH AS NEW CROSSING RESTRICTIONS AND RUNWAY CLOSURES. THIS NEW CROSSING RESTRICTION SHOULD HAVE BEEN PUT INTO THE NEW CHART REVISION CYCLE ABOUT 2 MONTHS AGO IF IT WAS INTENDED TO BE USED. PLEASE DO NOT PLAN NEW CROSSING RESTRICTIONS AND/OR PUT THEM INTO USE UNTIL THEY ARE POSTED IN THE CHARTS. THIS MAKES THINGS VERY CONFUSING WHEN A NEW RESTRICTION IS BEING USED THAT CONFLICTS WITH THE CHART.SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM RPTR ACN 765528: WE WERE GIVEN CROSS TIROE AT FL140. NEXT WE WERE CLEARED DIRECT HONIE AND THE LGC ARRIVAL. AS WE CROSSED HONIE THE CONTROLLER SAID SINCE YOU DID NOT MAKE HONIE AT FL140 CROSS TIROE AT FL120. I REPLIED THAT WE WERE TO CROSS TIROE AT FL140 AND WOULD EXPIDITE TO FL120. THE LGC ARRIVAL IN ATL STATES EXPECT TIROE AT FL140 FOR WEST LANDINGS.CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR 765547 REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: THE CAPTAIN FELT THIS WAS PRIMARILY A FAILED COMMUNICATION ISSUE. HE STATED THAT THE FLT CREW KNEW THERE WAS A NOTAM BUT HAD FORGOTTEN TO PROGRAM THE FMC IN CONCERT WITH THE NOTAM CHANGES. THE CAPTAIN ALSO STRESSED THE DIFFICULTY IN RETRIEVING PERTINENT INFORMATION FROM THE VOLUMINOUS AND DATED NOTAM PRESENTATION.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.