|37000 Feet||Browse and search NASA's
Aviation Safety Reporting System
|Local Time Of Day||1201 To 1800|
|Locale Reference||airport : sna.airport|
|Altitude||msl single value : 5000|
|Controlling Facilities||tracon : sct.tracon|
|Operator||common carrier : air carrier|
|Make Model Name||B737-700|
|Operating Under FAR Part||Part 121|
|Navigation In Use||other|
|Flight Phase||descent : intermediate altitude|
|Route In Use||arrival star : tandy|
|Affiliation||company : air carrier|
|Function||flight crew : first officer|
|Experience||flight time last 90 days : 255|
flight time type : 3000
|Affiliation||company : air carrier|
|Function||flight crew : captain|
oversight : pic
|Experience||flight time last 90 days : 188|
|Anomaly||non adherence : published procedure|
non adherence : far
|Independent Detector||other controllera|
|Resolutory Action||flight crew : returned to original clearance|
|Problem Areas||Airspace Structure|
Chart Or Publication
Flight Crew Human Performance
|Primary Problem||Flight Crew Human Performance|
On the tandy 3 to sna; received vectors for right downwind for ILS runway 19R at sna. At 5000 ft MSL; approximately 10 mi west of the field; the controller asked for our airspeed. We replied 250 KTS. He said something like; 'you're the third company in a row that has exceeded the speed as briefed.' when we queried him further he stated that his facility chief had briefed company on the need to fly at 200 KIAS below the class B airspace. We examined our charts and found that the flight path did indeed pass under a small corner of the lax class B airspace with a floor of 7000 ft. There was also a note on the chart for sna which cautions crews when arriving on the tandy that 'if approach control turns you early for a downwind to runway 19; you may descend below the 7000 ft floor of the class B airspace.' after examining the charts we noticed that even if one flies the entire tandy and is given an altitude below 7000 ft; one will be below the class B airspace. 1) both the captain and I had been into sna several times and did not recall ever having this problem (perhaps because ATC had assigned us the appropriate speed on those previous occasions). This familiarity also led us to be complacent regarding checking the notes on the chart and carefully review the charts regarding the class B airspace. Better discipline in checking notes/charts even in familiar territory will help prevent a recurrence. 2) the arrival/approach charts do not depict the boundaries or floors of the class B airspace. One must consult the low altitude en route chart to find the exact area in question. Also the aircraft has map displays but does not depict airspace. In other words; the information is not obviously available and; therefore; easy to miss. Perhaps enhanced charting; displays; and notes will help prevent further occurrences. Supplemental information from acn 705511: ATC said we were below the class B airspace and was very perturbed that we did not realize we were below class B airspace. It is not obvious where the class B airspace is on the arrival into sna. At best we were 3-5 mi into and below the airspace. The 10-7 page makes mention of this but it is a very vague reference and not very helpful. Put airspace overlays on the mfds. Put specific airspeed restr on the tandy arrival page. Put a more directive note on the 10-7 page such as slow to 210 KTS within 15 NM of the field.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: A B737-700 FLT CREW ON ARR TO SNA EXCEEDED THE 200 KT SPD LIMIT BELOW THE CLASS B FLOOR.
Narrative: ON THE TANDY 3 TO SNA; RECEIVED VECTORS FOR R DOWNWIND FOR ILS RWY 19R AT SNA. AT 5000 FT MSL; APPROX 10 MI W OF THE FIELD; THE CTLR ASKED FOR OUR AIRSPD. WE REPLIED 250 KTS. HE SAID SOMETHING LIKE; 'YOU'RE THE THIRD COMPANY IN A ROW THAT HAS EXCEEDED THE SPD AS BRIEFED.' WHEN WE QUERIED HIM FURTHER HE STATED THAT HIS FACILITY CHIEF HAD BRIEFED COMPANY ON THE NEED TO FLY AT 200 KIAS BELOW THE CLASS B AIRSPACE. WE EXAMINED OUR CHARTS AND FOUND THAT THE FLT PATH DID INDEED PASS UNDER A SMALL CORNER OF THE LAX CLASS B AIRSPACE WITH A FLOOR OF 7000 FT. THERE WAS ALSO A NOTE ON THE CHART FOR SNA WHICH CAUTIONS CREWS WHEN ARRIVING ON THE TANDY THAT 'IF APCH CTL TURNS YOU EARLY FOR A DOWNWIND TO RWY 19; YOU MAY DSND BELOW THE 7000 FT FLOOR OF THE CLASS B AIRSPACE.' AFTER EXAMINING THE CHARTS WE NOTICED THAT EVEN IF ONE FLIES THE ENTIRE TANDY AND IS GIVEN AN ALT BELOW 7000 FT; ONE WILL BE BELOW THE CLASS B AIRSPACE. 1) BOTH THE CAPT AND I HAD BEEN INTO SNA SEVERAL TIMES AND DID NOT RECALL EVER HAVING THIS PROB (PERHAPS BECAUSE ATC HAD ASSIGNED US THE APPROPRIATE SPD ON THOSE PREVIOUS OCCASIONS). THIS FAMILIARITY ALSO LED US TO BE COMPLACENT REGARDING CHKING THE NOTES ON THE CHART AND CAREFULLY REVIEW THE CHARTS REGARDING THE CLASS B AIRSPACE. BETTER DISCIPLINE IN CHKING NOTES/CHARTS EVEN IN FAMILIAR TERRITORY WILL HELP PREVENT A RECURRENCE. 2) THE ARR/APCH CHARTS DO NOT DEPICT THE BOUNDARIES OR FLOORS OF THE CLASS B AIRSPACE. ONE MUST CONSULT THE LOW ALT ENRTE CHART TO FIND THE EXACT AREA IN QUESTION. ALSO THE ACFT HAS MAP DISPLAYS BUT DOES NOT DEPICT AIRSPACE. IN OTHER WORDS; THE INFO IS NOT OBVIOUSLY AVAILABLE AND; THEREFORE; EASY TO MISS. PERHAPS ENHANCED CHARTING; DISPLAYS; AND NOTES WILL HELP PREVENT FURTHER OCCURRENCES. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 705511: ATC SAID WE WERE BELOW THE CLASS B AIRSPACE AND WAS VERY PERTURBED THAT WE DID NOT REALIZE WE WERE BELOW CLASS B AIRSPACE. IT IS NOT OBVIOUS WHERE THE CLASS B AIRSPACE IS ON THE ARR INTO SNA. AT BEST WE WERE 3-5 MI INTO AND BELOW THE AIRSPACE. THE 10-7 PAGE MAKES MENTION OF THIS BUT IT IS A VERY VAGUE REF AND NOT VERY HELPFUL. PUT AIRSPACE OVERLAYS ON THE MFDS. PUT SPECIFIC AIRSPD RESTR ON THE TANDY ARR PAGE. PUT A MORE DIRECTIVE NOTE ON THE 10-7 PAGE SUCH AS SLOW TO 210 KTS WITHIN 15 NM OF THE FIELD.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.