|37000 Feet||Browse and search NASA's
Aviation Safety Reporting System
|Local Time Of Day||0001 To 0600|
|Locale Reference||atc facility : zjx.artcc|
|Altitude||msl bound lower : 34000|
msl bound upper : 45000
|Controlling Facilities||artcc : zjx.artcc|
|Operator||general aviation : personal|
|Make Model Name||Learjet 25|
|Operating Under FAR Part||Part 91|
|Flight Phase||climbout : intermediate altitude|
|Function||flight crew : captain|
oversight : pic
|Qualification||pilot : atp|
pilot : instrument
pilot : commercial
|Experience||flight time last 90 days : 100|
flight time total : 4750
flight time type : 275
|Function||flight crew : first officer|
|Anomaly||non adherence : published procedure|
non adherence : far
|Independent Detector||other controllera|
|Resolutory Action||none taken : detected after the fact|
|Consequence||faa : reviewed incident with flight crew|
|Problem Areas||Flight Crew Human Performance|
|Primary Problem||Flight Crew Human Performance|
The lear 25B in this event is non rvsm compliant. It is proven/flight tested to FL450. While flying to clt; we were on our climb out to FL450. We were holding a rate of climb of approximately 1500 FPM. While passing through FL340; we were instructed by ATC to pass FL410 in 3 mins. That is a climb rate of approximately 2400 FPM. We complied with the ATC instruction and made the restr. This decreased our airspeed significantly. While approaching the tay VOR and continuing our climb to FL450 we were given another crossing restr that would have required us to climb at a rate that we were not capable of at that point in time; we had already increased our climb gradient further than planned or expected. With safety in mind; we told ATC that we were unable to accept the restr. All the while we were continuing to slow causing us to have to decrease our rate of climb. Once again mindful of safety; we told ATC that we were unable FL450 at that time. He then cleared to descend to FL430; which we did. Approximately 5 mins later; our airspeed had increased. We told ATC that we were able to accept FL450. ATC replied 'we do not need you up there at this time.' we were then instructed to phone the center upon arrival at our destination. We called ZJX and spoke with watch manager. To start off our conversation; she said that no further action would be taken depending on our 'attitude.' we explained; in detail; the situation. It seemed that the manager was not getting the response that she was looking for. Regardless; she was unable to cite any FARS that we were in violation of. She did; however; give good advice. She gave a few recommendations of things to do if in a similar situation in the future. Towards the close of our conversation; manager mentioned something that we found odd. She said that she needed us to say that we did not deliberately try to 'circumvent the system.' we replied 'no.' we would never do anything to compromise aviation safety. About 45 mins after our conversation with the manager we traveled back through ZJX's airspace at FL430 with no problem.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: LEAR 25B FLT CREW OPERATES IN RVSM AIRSPACE WITH A NON APPROVED ACFT.
Narrative: THE LEAR 25B IN THIS EVENT IS NON RVSM COMPLIANT. IT IS PROVEN/FLT TESTED TO FL450. WHILE FLYING TO CLT; WE WERE ON OUR CLB OUT TO FL450. WE WERE HOLDING A RATE OF CLB OF APPROX 1500 FPM. WHILE PASSING THROUGH FL340; WE WERE INSTRUCTED BY ATC TO PASS FL410 IN 3 MINS. THAT IS A CLB RATE OF APPROX 2400 FPM. WE COMPLIED WITH THE ATC INSTRUCTION AND MADE THE RESTR. THIS DECREASED OUR AIRSPD SIGNIFICANTLY. WHILE APCHING THE TAY VOR AND CONTINUING OUR CLB TO FL450 WE WERE GIVEN ANOTHER XING RESTR THAT WOULD HAVE REQUIRED US TO CLB AT A RATE THAT WE WERE NOT CAPABLE OF AT THAT POINT IN TIME; WE HAD ALREADY INCREASED OUR CLB GRADIENT FURTHER THAN PLANNED OR EXPECTED. WITH SAFETY IN MIND; WE TOLD ATC THAT WE WERE UNABLE TO ACCEPT THE RESTR. ALL THE WHILE WE WERE CONTINUING TO SLOW CAUSING US TO HAVE TO DECREASE OUR RATE OF CLB. ONCE AGAIN MINDFUL OF SAFETY; WE TOLD ATC THAT WE WERE UNABLE FL450 AT THAT TIME. HE THEN CLRED TO DSND TO FL430; WHICH WE DID. APPROX 5 MINS LATER; OUR AIRSPD HAD INCREASED. WE TOLD ATC THAT WE WERE ABLE TO ACCEPT FL450. ATC REPLIED 'WE DO NOT NEED YOU UP THERE AT THIS TIME.' WE WERE THEN INSTRUCTED TO PHONE THE CTR UPON ARR AT OUR DEST. WE CALLED ZJX AND SPOKE WITH WATCH MGR. TO START OFF OUR CONVERSATION; SHE SAID THAT NO FURTHER ACTION WOULD BE TAKEN DEPENDING ON OUR 'ATTITUDE.' WE EXPLAINED; IN DETAIL; THE SIT. IT SEEMED THAT THE MGR WAS NOT GETTING THE RESPONSE THAT SHE WAS LOOKING FOR. REGARDLESS; SHE WAS UNABLE TO CITE ANY FARS THAT WE WERE IN VIOLATION OF. SHE DID; HOWEVER; GIVE GOOD ADVICE. SHE GAVE A FEW RECOMMENDATIONS OF THINGS TO DO IF IN A SIMILAR SIT IN THE FUTURE. TOWARDS THE CLOSE OF OUR CONVERSATION; MGR MENTIONED SOMETHING THAT WE FOUND ODD. SHE SAID THAT SHE NEEDED US TO SAY THAT WE DID NOT DELIBERATELY TRY TO 'CIRCUMVENT THE SYS.' WE REPLIED 'NO.' WE WOULD NEVER DO ANYTHING TO COMPROMISE AVIATION SAFETY. ABOUT 45 MINS AFTER OUR CONVERSATION WITH THE MGR WE TRAVELED BACK THROUGH ZJX'S AIRSPACE AT FL430 WITH NO PROB.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.