Narrative:

During an IFR training flight to oak; I believe I may have been involved in a runway incursion with my IFR student. After completing an approach and landing on runway 27L; we rolled to taxiway P and exited the runway. We held short of runway 27R on taxiway P as a king air took off. After the king air took off; the controller cleared us to cross runway 27R and to contact ground on the other side. We read back the clearance and we crossed and since I had the airport chart out on my lap; I directed my student to keep rolling forward; as a destination sign (as defined in aim 2-3-11; figure 2-3-40) with black writing and a yellow background had an arrow pointing up (as in forward) indicating runway 33. We rolled forward; clearing the hold short lines for runway 27R and were holding on the solid side of the line (indicating we were off of runway 27R). Then I noticed that I could see runway numbers 33 directly ahead of us; and I saw no hold short lines between us and the runway 33 numbers. I then contacted ground and reported that we were clear of runway 27R; holding short of taxiway C on taxiway P and where we wanted to taxi to on the airport. The ground controller cleared us to taxi and made no mention of being on a runway or a runway incursion. The rest of our IFR flight was normal. In retrospect; I attempted to be vigilant to prevent this by having the airport chart out on my lap before we landed; and had the chart on my lap to aid in taxiing to prevent such occurrences! I felt I had given the chart a thorough briefing and from the appearance of the chart; I thought it was ok to taxi that way on taxiway P and make a right on taxiway C without entering onto runway 33. Also; I expected to see hold short lines before we entered any runway; however we did not see any because none are there. The only lines that are on the airport at this particular intersection indicate that you are off of runway 27R; with the dashed yellow lines on the side of runway 27R and the solid lines on the side of runway 33. However; when you are on the side of runway 33; clear of runway 27R; it is too late; you are on runway 33. Also; I would suggest the inclusion of some sort of symbol to show where runway hold short markings are on the charts; either with some sort of color or zig-zag line to aid pilots in preventing runway incursions. Also; the signage at this particular intersection at oak can be improved by putting a different type of sign such as a runway location with yellow numbers and a black background as defined in aim 2-3-9; location signs and figure 2-3-32. I understand that putting the red runway holding position sign with white numbers and a red background (as per aim 2-3-8 and figure 2-3-25) would not be practical since you are on taxiway P and coming from runway 27R you probably will not be taking off on runway 33. However; I believe that some sort of sign should be put up at this intersection to direct pilots to exit onto taxiway J; not taxiway P to avoid runway 33; as I was looking for either the red runway holding position sign or the black runway location sign.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: A PA44 INSTRUCTOR PLT RPTS A POSSIBLE OAK RWY 33 INCURSION CLAIMING THERE IS NO HOLD SHORT LINE ON TXWY P EXITING RWY 27R PRIOR TO RWY 33.

Narrative: DURING AN IFR TRAINING FLT TO OAK; I BELIEVE I MAY HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN A RWY INCURSION WITH MY IFR STUDENT. AFTER COMPLETING AN APCH AND LNDG ON RWY 27L; WE ROLLED TO TXWY P AND EXITED THE RWY. WE HELD SHORT OF RWY 27R ON TXWY P AS A KING AIR TOOK OFF. AFTER THE KING AIR TOOK OFF; THE CTLR CLRED US TO CROSS RWY 27R AND TO CONTACT GND ON THE OTHER SIDE. WE READ BACK THE CLRNC AND WE CROSSED AND SINCE I HAD THE ARPT CHART OUT ON MY LAP; I DIRECTED MY STUDENT TO KEEP ROLLING FORWARD; AS A DESTINATION SIGN (AS DEFINED IN AIM 2-3-11; FIGURE 2-3-40) WITH BLACK WRITING AND A YELLOW BACKGROUND HAD AN ARROW POINTING UP (AS IN FORWARD) INDICATING RWY 33. WE ROLLED FORWARD; CLEARING THE HOLD SHORT LINES FOR RWY 27R AND WERE HOLDING ON THE SOLID SIDE OF THE LINE (INDICATING WE WERE OFF OF RWY 27R). THEN I NOTICED THAT I COULD SEE RWY NUMBERS 33 DIRECTLY AHEAD OF US; AND I SAW NO HOLD SHORT LINES BETWEEN US AND THE RWY 33 NUMBERS. I THEN CONTACTED GND AND RPTED THAT WE WERE CLR OF RWY 27R; HOLDING SHORT OF TXWY C ON TXWY P AND WHERE WE WANTED TO TAXI TO ON THE ARPT. THE GND CTLR CLRED US TO TAXI AND MADE NO MENTION OF BEING ON A RWY OR A RWY INCURSION. THE REST OF OUR IFR FLT WAS NORMAL. IN RETROSPECT; I ATTEMPTED TO BE VIGILANT TO PREVENT THIS BY HAVING THE ARPT CHART OUT ON MY LAP BEFORE WE LANDED; AND HAD THE CHART ON MY LAP TO AID IN TAXIING TO PREVENT SUCH OCCURRENCES! I FELT I HAD GIVEN THE CHART A THOROUGH BRIEFING AND FROM THE APPEARANCE OF THE CHART; I THOUGHT IT WAS OK TO TAXI THAT WAY ON TXWY P AND MAKE A R ON TXWY C WITHOUT ENTERING ONTO RWY 33. ALSO; I EXPECTED TO SEE HOLD SHORT LINES BEFORE WE ENTERED ANY RWY; HOWEVER WE DID NOT SEE ANY BECAUSE NONE ARE THERE. THE ONLY LINES THAT ARE ON THE ARPT AT THIS PARTICULAR INTXN INDICATE THAT YOU ARE OFF OF RWY 27R; WITH THE DASHED YELLOW LINES ON THE SIDE OF RWY 27R AND THE SOLID LINES ON THE SIDE OF RWY 33. HOWEVER; WHEN YOU ARE ON THE SIDE OF RWY 33; CLEAR OF RWY 27R; IT IS TOO LATE; YOU ARE ON RWY 33. ALSO; I WOULD SUGGEST THE INCLUSION OF SOME SORT OF SYMBOL TO SHOW WHERE RWY HOLD SHORT MARKINGS ARE ON THE CHARTS; EITHER WITH SOME SORT OF COLOR OR ZIG-ZAG LINE TO AID PLTS IN PREVENTING RWY INCURSIONS. ALSO; THE SIGNAGE AT THIS PARTICULAR INTXN AT OAK CAN BE IMPROVED BY PUTTING A DIFFERENT TYPE OF SIGN SUCH AS A RWY LOCATION WITH YELLOW NUMBERS AND A BLACK BACKGROUND AS DEFINED IN AIM 2-3-9; LOCATION SIGNS AND FIGURE 2-3-32. I UNDERSTAND THAT PUTTING THE RED RWY HOLDING POSITION SIGN WITH WHITE NUMBERS AND A RED BACKGROUND (AS PER AIM 2-3-8 AND FIGURE 2-3-25) WOULD NOT BE PRACTICAL SINCE YOU ARE ON TXWY P AND COMING FROM RWY 27R YOU PROBABLY WILL NOT BE TAKING OFF ON RWY 33. HOWEVER; I BELIEVE THAT SOME SORT OF SIGN SHOULD BE PUT UP AT THIS INTXN TO DIRECT PLTS TO EXIT ONTO TXWY J; NOT TXWY P TO AVOID RWY 33; AS I WAS LOOKING FOR EITHER THE RED RWY HOLDING POSITION SIGN OR THE BLACK RWY LOCATION SIGN.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.