|37000 Feet||Browse and search NASA's
Aviation Safety Reporting System
|Local Time Of Day||0601 To 1200|
|Locale Reference||airport : ord.airport|
|Altitude||agl single value : 0|
|Controlling Facilities||tower : ord.tower|
|Operator||common carrier : air carrier|
|Make Model Name||A319|
|Operating Under FAR Part||Part 121|
|Flight Phase||climbout : takeoff|
ground : takeoff roll
|Affiliation||company : air carrier|
|Function||flight crew : first officer|
|Experience||flight time last 90 days : 230|
flight time total : 6000
flight time type : 700
|Affiliation||company : air carrier|
|Function||flight crew : captain|
oversight : pic
|Experience||flight time last 90 days : 180|
flight time total : 10000
flight time type : 2700
other anomaly other
|Independent Detector||other flight crewa|
|Resolutory Action||none taken : insufficient time|
We were late from gate due to baggage loading issues. After pushback; we had to wait 15-20 mins to get our weights. We then input our new numbers and proceeded to take off. This took 5 mins. On takeoff roll; I tried to rotate and the stick went to the full aft stop with no effect on the aircraft. As I was going to tell the captain; the nose came up on its own due to the continuing acceleration. I think the aircraft rotated about 15-20 KT after vr; but I am not sure. About 1 min after takeoff; we got an ACARS message. When we looked at it; it said that our weights were incorrect and then after another short time the proper weights were sent to us. Dispatch told us this flight has had similar problems on other days. It may be due to the fact that the flight number is an international continuation and the actual date on the flight paperwork is from the day prior. This particular incident could have resulted in an extremely high speed reject with all of the associated issues because it appeared that the stick had malfunctioned. Supplemental information from acn 655138: we got a message 1 min after takeoff that said; 'weights wrong ramp working on fix numbers questions contact me using miscellaneous.' this ACARS message began flashing after the initial flap retraction from 2 degrees to 1 degree. The copilot then told me that he had 'full aft' stick and could not rotate and almost asked me to take the aircraft. I did not see the speed that we actually lifted off; but it was well after vr. The rotation was more like a delayed rotation speed for windshear. The takeoff did not feel 'normal.' this dispatcher said; 'I copied your conversation with lp and gave it to mgt' who is giving it to the lp manager. We have problems with this flight often due to it being predated. I think ramp confuses numbers because of that. You may want to mention that in your report.' the time lapse from getting final weights was 5 mins from receipt to takeoff because the weight was higher and we had to put that weight into the ACARS message. We took our time. 6 mins lapsed from the time we got the final weights to the time we got the ACARS message that they were wrong. The chain of events began when they had to reload the pits to separate an animal from dry ice. Push crew said all the pits were full. I asked the lp how we could avoid this in the future and he said; 'better control;' as in the ramp has to pay more attention to what they are doing. My personal opinion is that they are just 1 link in a chain of events that could have led to a high speed abort after V1 and who knows what after that. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: reporter reinforced the same statements made in his written report. The additional information was that he felt the aircraft had takeoff capability because of the speed increase not the elevator trimming itself. He also stated that the shock of full aft side stick without aircraft response hit him sometime later as an almost emotional shock. He thought about the 'what if' they could not get off at a high speed. The captain has been in contact with the company; the FAA; and union to review this incident.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: AN A319 TAKING OFF WITH INCORRECT WT AND BAL INFO ROTATED 15-20 KTS ABOVE VR WITH FULL AFT STICK SELECTED AT VR.
Narrative: WE WERE LATE FROM GATE DUE TO BAGGAGE LOADING ISSUES. AFTER PUSHBACK; WE HAD TO WAIT 15-20 MINS TO GET OUR WTS. WE THEN INPUT OUR NEW NUMBERS AND PROCEEDED TO TAKE OFF. THIS TOOK 5 MINS. ON TKOF ROLL; I TRIED TO ROTATE AND THE STICK WENT TO THE FULL AFT STOP WITH NO EFFECT ON THE ACFT. AS I WAS GOING TO TELL THE CAPT; THE NOSE CAME UP ON ITS OWN DUE TO THE CONTINUING ACCELERATION. I THINK THE ACFT ROTATED ABOUT 15-20 KT AFTER VR; BUT I AM NOT SURE. ABOUT 1 MIN AFTER TKOF; WE GOT AN ACARS MESSAGE. WHEN WE LOOKED AT IT; IT SAID THAT OUR WTS WERE INCORRECT AND THEN AFTER ANOTHER SHORT TIME THE PROPER WTS WERE SENT TO US. DISPATCH TOLD US THIS FLT HAS HAD SIMILAR PROBS ON OTHER DAYS. IT MAY BE DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE FLT NUMBER IS AN INTL CONTINUATION AND THE ACTUAL DATE ON THE FLT PAPERWORK IS FROM THE DAY PRIOR. THIS PARTICULAR INCIDENT COULD HAVE RESULTED IN AN EXTREMELY HIGH SPD REJECT WITH ALL OF THE ASSOCIATED ISSUES BECAUSE IT APPEARED THAT THE STICK HAD MALFUNCTIONED. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 655138: WE GOT A MESSAGE 1 MIN AFTER TKOF THAT SAID; 'WTS WRONG RAMP WORKING ON FIX NUMBERS QUESTIONS CONTACT ME USING MISC.' THIS ACARS MESSAGE BEGAN FLASHING AFTER THE INITIAL FLAP RETRACTION FROM 2 DEGS TO 1 DEG. THE COPLT THEN TOLD ME THAT HE HAD 'FULL AFT' STICK AND COULD NOT ROTATE AND ALMOST ASKED ME TO TAKE THE ACFT. I DID NOT SEE THE SPD THAT WE ACTUALLY LIFTED OFF; BUT IT WAS WELL AFTER VR. THE ROTATION WAS MORE LIKE A DELAYED ROTATION SPD FOR WINDSHEAR. THE TKOF DID NOT FEEL 'NORMAL.' THIS DISPATCHER SAID; 'I COPIED YOUR CONVERSATION WITH LP AND GAVE IT TO MGT' WHO IS GIVING IT TO THE LP MGR. WE HAVE PROBS WITH THIS FLT OFTEN DUE TO IT BEING PREDATED. I THINK RAMP CONFUSES NUMBERS BECAUSE OF THAT. YOU MAY WANT TO MENTION THAT IN YOUR RPT.' THE TIME LAPSE FROM GETTING FINAL WTS WAS 5 MINS FROM RECEIPT TO TKOF BECAUSE THE WT WAS HIGHER AND WE HAD TO PUT THAT WT INTO THE ACARS MESSAGE. WE TOOK OUR TIME. 6 MINS LAPSED FROM THE TIME WE GOT THE FINAL WTS TO THE TIME WE GOT THE ACARS MESSAGE THAT THEY WERE WRONG. THE CHAIN OF EVENTS BEGAN WHEN THEY HAD TO RELOAD THE PITS TO SEPARATE AN ANIMAL FROM DRY ICE. PUSH CREW SAID ALL THE PITS WERE FULL. I ASKED THE LP HOW WE COULD AVOID THIS IN THE FUTURE AND HE SAID; 'BETTER CTL;' AS IN THE RAMP HAS TO PAY MORE ATTN TO WHAT THEY ARE DOING. MY PERSONAL OPINION IS THAT THEY ARE JUST 1 LINK IN A CHAIN OF EVENTS THAT COULD HAVE LED TO A HIGH SPD ABORT AFTER V1 AND WHO KNOWS WHAT AFTER THAT. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR REINFORCED THE SAME STATEMENTS MADE IN HIS WRITTEN RPT. THE ADDITIONAL INFO WAS THAT HE FELT THE ACFT HAD TKOF CAPABILITY BECAUSE OF THE SPD INCREASE NOT THE ELEVATOR TRIMMING ITSELF. HE ALSO STATED THAT THE SHOCK OF FULL AFT SIDE STICK WITHOUT ACFT RESPONSE HIT HIM SOMETIME LATER AS AN ALMOST EMOTIONAL SHOCK. HE THOUGHT ABOUT THE 'WHAT IF' THEY COULD NOT GET OFF AT A HIGH SPD. THE CAPT HAS BEEN IN CONTACT WITH THE COMPANY; THE FAA; AND UNION TO REVIEW THIS INCIDENT.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.