Narrative:

Departed sdl via runway 3, left downwind departure, for dvt in VFR conditions. Sdl tower approved a frequency change about 2 mi southwest of sdl, and we attempted to contact dvt tower. Several attempts were made, with no response. As we were approaching highway 51, still south of bell road, and well outside the dvt class D airspace, we turned left to remain clear of the class D airspace. Shortly thereafter, while heading south, we established contact with dvt tower, while still outside the class D airspace, verified by both visual position and comparison to the phx terminal area chart, with additional verification by a GPS unit, which also showed us to be outside the deer valley class D airspace. On initial contact, the controller requested that we identify on our transponder. The ATC specialist then stated that our position was '2 mi south ' and that it was 'a possible violation.' at the time, we were 5-6 mi south of dvt airport, and outside the class D airspace. He further instructed us to 'turn left, enter left base, cleared to land runway 25L.' we continued the left turn we were already in, and proceeded inbound to the airport on a long left base leg, subsequently landing. We did not object to the controller's statement that we were '2 mi south,' because he sounded tired and somewhat gruff. In later discussions with other ATC specialists, we were told that it is best to immediately respond to any such statements or improper instructions, in order that our objections are on the tape, as well as the controller's statements or instructions. In the future, we will be sure to do so, rather than trying to be amenable in such a situation. The basis for the controller's estimate of our position is unclr. Dvt has a VFR only tower, with a BRITE scope repeater channeled from luke AFB, about 10 mi southwest of deer valley airport. However, as a VFR tower, I have been informed that the BRITE scope is not certified for ATC, and that tower personnel at dvt are not certified on radar. Also, the positioning and calibration of the map on the BRITE scope may be questionable, if this is the source of his position estimate (since we were at least 3-4 mi more distant than the controller stated). It is my understanding that luke approach was not manned or operating at that hour on sunday night. This situation occurred at night, with only our navigation lights (wingtip and tail position lights) and anticollision lights illuminated (landing lights were not on), at an altitude of 2500 ft MSL, against a backdrop of higher mountains with many houses and other lighted buildings thereon, making a visual distance estimate to an airborne object in a turn very difficult. We are familiar with the area and its airspace boundaries, and were intent on remaining outside the class D airspace until establishing contact and receiving clearance.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: C421 FLC DISPUTE DVT TWR POS VERIFICATION AFTER DEPARTING SDL.

Narrative: DEPARTED SDL VIA RWY 3, L DOWNWIND DEP, FOR DVT IN VFR CONDITIONS. SDL TWR APPROVED A FREQ CHANGE ABOUT 2 MI SW OF SDL, AND WE ATTEMPTED TO CONTACT DVT TWR. SEVERAL ATTEMPTS WERE MADE, WITH NO RESPONSE. AS WE WERE APCHING HWY 51, STILL S OF BELL ROAD, AND WELL OUTSIDE THE DVT CLASS D AIRSPACE, WE TURNED L TO REMAIN CLR OF THE CLASS D AIRSPACE. SHORTLY THEREAFTER, WHILE HDG S, WE ESTABLISHED CONTACT WITH DVT TWR, WHILE STILL OUTSIDE THE CLASS D AIRSPACE, VERIFIED BY BOTH VISUAL POS AND COMPARISON TO THE PHX TERMINAL AREA CHART, WITH ADDITIONAL VERIFICATION BY A GPS UNIT, WHICH ALSO SHOWED US TO BE OUTSIDE THE DEER VALLEY CLASS D AIRSPACE. ON INITIAL CONTACT, THE CTLR REQUESTED THAT WE IDENT ON OUR XPONDER. THE ATC SPECIALIST THEN STATED THAT OUR POS WAS '2 MI S ' AND THAT IT WAS 'A POSSIBLE VIOLATION.' AT THE TIME, WE WERE 5-6 MI S OF DVT ARPT, AND OUTSIDE THE CLASS D AIRSPACE. HE FURTHER INSTRUCTED US TO 'TURN L, ENTER L BASE, CLRED TO LAND RWY 25L.' WE CONTINUED THE L TURN WE WERE ALREADY IN, AND PROCEEDED INBOUND TO THE ARPT ON A LONG L BASE LEG, SUBSEQUENTLY LNDG. WE DID NOT OBJECT TO THE CTLR'S STATEMENT THAT WE WERE '2 MI S,' BECAUSE HE SOUNDED TIRED AND SOMEWHAT GRUFF. IN LATER DISCUSSIONS WITH OTHER ATC SPECIALISTS, WE WERE TOLD THAT IT IS BEST TO IMMEDIATELY RESPOND TO ANY SUCH STATEMENTS OR IMPROPER INSTRUCTIONS, IN ORDER THAT OUR OBJECTIONS ARE ON THE TAPE, AS WELL AS THE CTLR'S STATEMENTS OR INSTRUCTIONS. IN THE FUTURE, WE WILL BE SURE TO DO SO, RATHER THAN TRYING TO BE AMENABLE IN SUCH A SIT. THE BASIS FOR THE CTLR'S ESTIMATE OF OUR POS IS UNCLR. DVT HAS A VFR ONLY TWR, WITH A BRITE SCOPE REPEATER CHANNELED FROM LUKE AFB, ABOUT 10 MI SW OF DEER VALLEY ARPT. HOWEVER, AS A VFR TWR, I HAVE BEEN INFORMED THAT THE BRITE SCOPE IS NOT CERTIFIED FOR ATC, AND THAT TWR PERSONNEL AT DVT ARE NOT CERTIFIED ON RADAR. ALSO, THE POSITIONING AND CALIBRATION OF THE MAP ON THE BRITE SCOPE MAY BE QUESTIONABLE, IF THIS IS THE SOURCE OF HIS POS ESTIMATE (SINCE WE WERE AT LEAST 3-4 MI MORE DISTANT THAN THE CTLR STATED). IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT LUKE APCH WAS NOT MANNED OR OPERATING AT THAT HR ON SUNDAY NIGHT. THIS SIT OCCURRED AT NIGHT, WITH ONLY OUR NAV LIGHTS (WINGTIP AND TAIL POS LIGHTS) AND ANTICOLLISION LIGHTS ILLUMINATED (LNDG LIGHTS WERE NOT ON), AT AN ALT OF 2500 FT MSL, AGAINST A BACKDROP OF HIGHER MOUNTAINS WITH MANY HOUSES AND OTHER LIGHTED BUILDINGS THEREON, MAKING A VISUAL DISTANCE ESTIMATE TO AN AIRBORNE OBJECT IN A TURN VERY DIFFICULT. WE ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE AREA AND ITS AIRSPACE BOUNDARIES, AND WERE INTENT ON REMAINING OUTSIDE THE CLASS D AIRSPACE UNTIL ESTABLISHING CONTACT AND RECEIVING CLRNC.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.