Air carrier B727 flight crew challenged by ZOA controller about complying with loupe SID restr.

Attributes
ACN	449330
Time
Date	199909
Day	Thu
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	navaid : sjc.vor
State Reference	CA
Altitude	msl bound lower : 13500 msl bound upper : 14000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	artcc : zoa.artcc
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	B727 Undifferentiated or Other Model
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Navigation In Use	other vortac
Flight Phase	climbout : vacating altitude
Route In Use	departure sid : loupe 9
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp pilot : cfi pilot : flight engineer
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 180 flight time total : 14000 flight time type : 5000
ASRS Report	449330
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : multi engine pilot : instrument pilot : commercial
Events
Anomaly	altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met altitude deviation : undershoot non adherence : published procedure other anomaly other
Independent Detector	atc equipment other atc equipment : radar other controllera other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	controller : issued advisory none taken : insufficient time
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew
Supplementary
Problem Areas	Flight Crew Human Performance Chart Or Publication ATC Human Performance
Primary Problem	ATC Human Performance

Narrative:

We (X) departed sjc on the loupe nine departure. Departure control cleared us to climb unrestr to 12000 ft. Later cleared us to climb to FL230 cross the sjc VOR at 12000 ft resume the loupe 9 departure. As we crossed the sjc VOR at 12000 ft we switched to ZOA. New controller then reclred us to climb to FL230. I repeated back 'cleared unrestr to FL230.' we had been climbing at best angle (vx) and lowered the climb rate to approximately 500 FPM to accelerate. At approximately the 8 DME fix at 13500 ft the controller asked if we had leveled off. I replied we were accelerating. His concern seemed to be that we didn't make the crossing restr 14000 ft at 8 DME on the loupe 9. I have looked in our flight operations manual (ATC section) and it states clearly that, when a controller issues a new cleared altitude or restates a previous cleared altitude all altitude restrs are canceled including those on a SID. I asked the controller if there was a misunderstanding? He again asked if we had leveled off. I said we had not but had reduced the climb rate to accelerate. He said there was no problem. I'm still confused as to what his point was. If he really wanted us to make the altitude restrs he should have restated comply with restrs when he restated our cleared altitude. I gave him the chance to correct this when I confirmed his clearance with our understanding comment of climb unrestr to FL230. This frequency was not busy. I hope this isn't the beginning of the new ATC policy of not listening to or correcting readback of clrncs.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: ACR B727 FLC CHALLENGED BY ZOA CTLR ABOUT COMPLYING WITH LOUPE SID RESTR.

Narrative: WE (X) DEPARTED SJC ON THE LOUPE NINE DEP. DEP CTL CLRED US TO CLB UNRESTR TO 12000 FT. LATER CLRED US TO CLB TO FL230 CROSS THE SJC VOR AT 12000 FT RESUME THE LOUPE 9 DEP. AS WE CROSSED THE SJC VOR AT 12000 FT WE SWITCHED TO ZOA. NEW CTLR THEN RECLRED US TO CLB TO FL230. I REPEATED BACK 'CLRED UNRESTR TO FL230.' WE HAD BEEN CLBING AT BEST ANGLE (VX) AND LOWERED THE CLB RATE TO APPROX 500 FPM TO ACCELERATE. AT APPROX THE 8 DME FIX AT 13500 FT THE CTLR ASKED IF WE HAD LEVELED OFF. I REPLIED WE WERE ACCELERATING. HIS CONCERN SEEMED TO BE THAT WE DIDN'T MAKE THE XING RESTR 14000 FT AT 8 DME ON THE LOUPE 9. I HAVE LOOKED IN OUR FLT OPS MANUAL (ATC SECTION) AND IT STATES CLRLY THAT, WHEN A CTLR ISSUES A NEW CLRED ALT OR RESTATES A PREVIOUS CLRED ALT ALL ALT RESTRS ARE CANCELED INCLUDING THOSE ON A SID. I ASKED THE CTLR IF THERE WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING? HE AGAIN ASKED IF WE HAD LEVELED OFF. I SAID WE HAD NOT BUT HAD REDUCED THE CLB RATE TO ACCELERATE. HE SAID THERE WAS NO PROB. I'M STILL CONFUSED AS TO WHAT HIS POINT WAS. IF HE REALLY WANTED US TO MAKE THE ALT RESTRS HE SHOULD HAVE RESTATED COMPLY WITH RESTRS WHEN HE RESTATED OUR CLRED ALT. I GAVE HIM THE CHANCE TO CORRECT THIS WHEN I CONFIRMED HIS CLRNC WITH OUR UNDERSTANDING COMMENT OF CLB UNRESTR TO FL230. THIS FREQ WAS NOT BUSY. I HOPE THIS ISN'T THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW ATC POLICY OF NOT LISTENING TO OR CORRECTING READBACK OF CLRNCS.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.