|37000 Feet||Browse and search NASA's
Aviation Safety Reporting System
|Local Time Of Day||1201 To 1800|
|Locale Reference||navaid : jfk.vor|
|Altitude||msl bound lower : 3500|
msl bound upper : 5500
|Controlling Facilities||tracon : n90.tracon|
|Operator||general aviation : personal|
|Make Model Name||Skyhawk 172/Cutlass 172|
|Flight Phase||cruise : enroute altitude change|
cruise : level
|Route In Use||enroute : direct|
|Function||flight crew : single pilot|
|Qualification||pilot : multi engine|
pilot : commercial
pilot : instrument
pilot : atp
|Experience||flight time last 90 days : 50|
flight time total : 5500
flight time type : 1000
|Affiliation||government : faa|
|Function||controller : approach|
|Qualification||controller : radar|
|Independent Detector||other flight crewa|
|Resolutory Action||controller : issued new clearance|
|Problem Areas||ATC Human Performance|
Flight Crew Human Performance
Ttn to 21N. Departed ttn for 21N by way of colts neck VOR 3500 ft. Approximately AB20 informed ground control at ttn I was experimental. Taxied to active runway, contacted tower and departed. Was turned over to mcguire approach control after departure from ttn then to new york approach (kennedy). Informed them I was experimental and would take whatever altitude was best for them. The aircraft is a C172K, modified with a full authority/authorized digital engine control (fadec). The engine has no magnetos and is fuel injected. This is all controled by computer. This is the reason for the experimental certificate. Was turned over to another controller. Just before colts neck, was cleared to 5500 ft. Was then told I could proceed direct to jfk VOR. Told the controller I would like to stay over water as I was experimental and couldn't fly over densely populated areas. At this point I was questioned why I couldn't fly over densely populated areas and told him I was experimental and I wasn't supposed to be over densely populated areas and he wanted to know where I got that from (he also questioned what constituted densely populated areas by definition and I told him he would have to ask the FAA that one) and I told him it was on the attachment to the experimental certificate. He came back and said they (I guess meaning the rest of the controllers) didn't understand why I was restr over densely populated areas they had never heard that before. I then pulled out the certificate and read it, but couldn't find it on there, so I told him that, but was sure I had seen it somewhere. (It may have been on the first experimental certificate when the initial fly-off was done by the test pilot.) this seemed to tie up a lot of air time in conversation. All I wanted to do was get to 21N and didn't mind flying over water. He finally gave me direct jfk VOR with a right turn when I approached the beach. At no time did I refuse a clearance, only advised what I thought to be the correct form of action to follow the intent of the experimental certificate. I made the right turn at the beach and nothing else was brought up about this. I arrived at 21N at approximately AC30. My comments are as follows: 1) was I incorrect in interping the far's as far as flying over densely populated areas with an experimental certificate (ie, brooklyn, ny)? 2) why was so much time taken up over the air waves to discuss this, going through class B airspace? The controller didn't seem to be too busy, but seemed to spend too much time on this as pilots were waiting to check in with him. 3) shouldn't the controller(south) know the definition of densely populated airspace? 4) I am filing this report because I believe I may be targeted for a violation. 5) I have 30+ yrs flying with over 5000 hours logged and have never had a violation, incident, accident or anything against my flying record, and I don't want it to start now.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: AN ATP PLT FLYING A MODIFIED C172K NEAR JFK ASKS FOR VECTORS AWAY FROM DENSELY POPULATED AREAS AS HE STATES THAT HIS ACFT IS EXPERIMENTAL AND REQUIRES THIS SPECIAL ROUTING ON THE WAY TO 21N, NY. CTLRS AT N90 QUESTION THIS REQUIREMENT.
Narrative: TTN TO 21N. DEPARTED TTN FOR 21N BY WAY OF COLTS NECK VOR 3500 FT. APPROX AB20 INFORMED GND CTL AT TTN I WAS EXPERIMENTAL. TAXIED TO ACTIVE RWY, CONTACTED TWR AND DEPARTED. WAS TURNED OVER TO MCGUIRE APCH CTL AFTER DEP FROM TTN THEN TO NEW YORK APCH (KENNEDY). INFORMED THEM I WAS EXPERIMENTAL AND WOULD TAKE WHATEVER ALT WAS BEST FOR THEM. THE ACFT IS A C172K, MODIFIED WITH A FULL AUTH DIGITAL ENG CTL (FADEC). THE ENG HAS NO MAGNETOS AND IS FUEL INJECTED. THIS IS ALL CTLED BY COMPUTER. THIS IS THE REASON FOR THE EXPERIMENTAL CERTIFICATE. WAS TURNED OVER TO ANOTHER CTLR. JUST BEFORE COLTS NECK, WAS CLRED TO 5500 FT. WAS THEN TOLD I COULD PROCEED DIRECT TO JFK VOR. TOLD THE CTLR I WOULD LIKE TO STAY OVER WATER AS I WAS EXPERIMENTAL AND COULDN'T FLY OVER DENSELY POPULATED AREAS. AT THIS POINT I WAS QUESTIONED WHY I COULDN'T FLY OVER DENSELY POPULATED AREAS AND TOLD HIM I WAS EXPERIMENTAL AND I WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE OVER DENSELY POPULATED AREAS AND HE WANTED TO KNOW WHERE I GOT THAT FROM (HE ALSO QUESTIONED WHAT CONSTITUTED DENSELY POPULATED AREAS BY DEFINITION AND I TOLD HIM HE WOULD HAVE TO ASK THE FAA THAT ONE) AND I TOLD HIM IT WAS ON THE ATTACHMENT TO THE EXPERIMENTAL CERTIFICATE. HE CAME BACK AND SAID THEY (I GUESS MEANING THE REST OF THE CTLRS) DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY I WAS RESTR OVER DENSELY POPULATED AREAS THEY HAD NEVER HEARD THAT BEFORE. I THEN PULLED OUT THE CERTIFICATE AND READ IT, BUT COULDN'T FIND IT ON THERE, SO I TOLD HIM THAT, BUT WAS SURE I HAD SEEN IT SOMEWHERE. (IT MAY HAVE BEEN ON THE FIRST EXPERIMENTAL CERTIFICATE WHEN THE INITIAL FLY-OFF WAS DONE BY THE TEST PLT.) THIS SEEMED TO TIE UP A LOT OF AIR TIME IN CONVERSATION. ALL I WANTED TO DO WAS GET TO 21N AND DIDN'T MIND FLYING OVER WATER. HE FINALLY GAVE ME DIRECT JFK VOR WITH A R TURN WHEN I APCHED THE BEACH. AT NO TIME DID I REFUSE A CLRNC, ONLY ADVISED WHAT I THOUGHT TO BE THE CORRECT FORM OF ACTION TO FOLLOW THE INTENT OF THE EXPERIMENTAL CERTIFICATE. I MADE THE R TURN AT THE BEACH AND NOTHING ELSE WAS BROUGHT UP ABOUT THIS. I ARRIVED AT 21N AT APPROX AC30. MY COMMENTS ARE AS FOLLOWS: 1) WAS I INCORRECT IN INTERPING THE FAR'S AS FAR AS FLYING OVER DENSELY POPULATED AREAS WITH AN EXPERIMENTAL CERTIFICATE (IE, BROOKLYN, NY)? 2) WHY WAS SO MUCH TIME TAKEN UP OVER THE AIR WAVES TO DISCUSS THIS, GOING THROUGH CLASS B AIRSPACE? THE CTLR DIDN'T SEEM TO BE TOO BUSY, BUT SEEMED TO SPEND TOO MUCH TIME ON THIS AS PLTS WERE WAITING TO CHK IN WITH HIM. 3) SHOULDN'T THE CTLR(S) KNOW THE DEFINITION OF DENSELY POPULATED AIRSPACE? 4) I AM FILING THIS RPT BECAUSE I BELIEVE I MAY BE TARGETED FOR A VIOLATION. 5) I HAVE 30+ YRS FLYING WITH OVER 5000 HRS LOGGED AND HAVE NEVER HAD A VIOLATION, INCIDENT, ACCIDENT OR ANYTHING AGAINST MY FLYING RECORD, AND I DON'T WANT IT TO START NOW.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.