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B727 air carrier PIC refuses to accept visual separation following B757 in final approach. Approach controller resequences B727 behind E120 for visual approach. When PIC does not report traffic in sight, controller clears B727 for ILS. B727 PIC challenges ATC procedure and controller credibility.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 413671 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199809 |
| Day | Sat |
| Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | airport : atl |
| State Reference | GA |
| Altitude | msl bound lower : 3500 msl bound upper : 3500 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Night |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : atl |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | B727 Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach |
| Route In Use | approach : visual arrival other |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | B757 Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Navigation In Use | Other |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach descent other |
| Route In Use | approach : visual arrival other |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 170 flight time total : 10500 flight time type : 3500 |
| ASRS Report | 413671 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : atp |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | non adherence : clearance non adherence : far other anomaly other |
| Independent Detector | other controllera other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance other |
| Consequence | Other |
| Supplementary | |
| Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
| Air Traffic Incident | other |
Narrative:
Controller had visual 'follow the leader' approach operations in full swing. Put us behind a B757, asked us to call traffic in sight so he could clear us to follow traffic for a visual. Told him I wanted standard wake turbulence separation. He said, you have 4 NM -- do you want more? I said, no -- but we would do the visual if he (ATC) maintained separation. He said, 'I hear what you're saying,' and turned us out of pattern. He took us all the way back out and tried to have us visually follow a brasilia. Told him we had him in sight, looking at a side profile, but we would keep him advised when we were both established on final. He cleared us for ILS. Controller also cleared another aircraft for visual even though pilot said he could not positively identify preceding traffic. It's pretty pathetic when you're made to feel like the bad guy by those who know and refuse to follow rules. Maybe a wake turbulence accident will be the only thing to shut down ATC's unsafe practices.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: B727 ACR PIC REFUSES TO ACCEPT VISUAL SEPARATION FOLLOWING B757 IN FINAL APCH. APCH CTLR RESEQUENCES B727 BEHIND E120 FOR VISUAL APCH. WHEN PIC DOES NOT RPT TFC IN SIGHT, CTLR CLRS B727 FOR ILS. B727 PIC CHALLENGES ATC PROC AND CTLR CREDIBILITY.
Narrative: CTLR HAD VISUAL 'FOLLOW THE LEADER' APCH OPS IN FULL SWING. PUT US BEHIND A B757, ASKED US TO CALL TFC IN SIGHT SO HE COULD CLR US TO FOLLOW TFC FOR A VISUAL. TOLD HIM I WANTED STANDARD WAKE TURB SEPARATION. HE SAID, YOU HAVE 4 NM -- DO YOU WANT MORE? I SAID, NO -- BUT WE WOULD DO THE VISUAL IF HE (ATC) MAINTAINED SEPARATION. HE SAID, 'I HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING,' AND TURNED US OUT OF PATTERN. HE TOOK US ALL THE WAY BACK OUT AND TRIED TO HAVE US VISUALLY FOLLOW A BRASILIA. TOLD HIM WE HAD HIM IN SIGHT, LOOKING AT A SIDE PROFILE, BUT WE WOULD KEEP HIM ADVISED WHEN WE WERE BOTH ESTABLISHED ON FINAL. HE CLRED US FOR ILS. CTLR ALSO CLRED ANOTHER ACFT FOR VISUAL EVEN THOUGH PLT SAID HE COULD NOT POSITIVELY IDENT PRECEDING TFC. IT'S PRETTY PATHETIC WHEN YOU'RE MADE TO FEEL LIKE THE BAD GUY BY THOSE WHO KNOW AND REFUSE TO FOLLOW RULES. MAYBE A WAKE TURB ACCIDENT WILL BE THE ONLY THING TO SHUT DOWN ATC'S UNSAFE PRACTICES.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.