<< >> NASA ASRS Report 401884, May 1998

An air carrier B727 flight crew reports that they refused to accept a land and hold short clearance. They advised the approach controller, but also had to advise the ATCT local controller.

Attributes
ACN	401884
Time
Date	199805
Day	Sat
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	airport : ord
State Reference	IL
Altitude	msl bound lower : 2000 msl bound upper : 2000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : ord tower : ord tower : cgf
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Large Transport, Low Wing, 3 Turbojet Eng
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Flight Phase	descent : approach
Route In Use	approach : visual
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp pilot : cfi pilot : flight engineer
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 18100 flight time type : 2100
ASRS Report	401884
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : instrument pilot : commercial
Events
Anomaly	other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	other
Consequence	Other
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	other

Narrative:

Upon arrival in the ord area we received the ATIS which indicated that lahso was being conducted at O'hare. Upon initial contact with ord approach, we advised them that we were unable to land and hold short. We were then vectored to land on runway 9R. Upon contacting the tower, we were told to hold short of 'sierra' intersection and that M5 would be available. I advised the tower that we would not be able accept the hold short clearance but that we would try to exit on M5. The tower controller seemed surprised and asked if we could hold short of 'sierra' and I advised 'no sir!'. This is another example of the lack of communications between ATC positions. It would help if ATC could understand that we are not trying to make their operation difficult for them, but rather to avoid a situation that is either unsafe or places us in jeopardy of certificate action.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: AN ACR B727 FLC REPORTS THAT THEY REFUSED TO ACCEPT A LAND AND HOLD SHORT CLRNC. THEY ADVISED THE APCH CTLR, BUT ALSO HAD TO ADVISE THE ATCT LCL CTLR.

Narrative: UPON ARR IN THE ORD AREA WE RECEIVED THE ATIS WHICH INDICATED THAT LAHSO WAS BEING CONDUCTED AT O'HARE. UPON INITIAL CONTACT WITH ORD APCH, WE ADVISED THEM THAT WE WERE UNABLE TO LAND AND HOLD SHORT. WE WERE THEN VECTORED TO LAND ON RWY 9R. UPON CONTACTING THE TWR, WE WERE TOLD TO HOLD SHORT OF 'SIERRA' INTXN AND THAT M5 WOULD BE AVAILABLE. I ADVISED THE TWR THAT WE WOULD NOT BE ABLE ACCEPT THE HOLD SHORT CLRNC BUT THAT WE WOULD TRY TO EXIT ON M5. THE TWR CTLR SEEMED SURPRISED AND ASKED IF WE COULD HOLD SHORT OF 'SIERRA' AND I ADVISED 'NO SIR!'. THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE LACK OF COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN ATC POSITIONS. IT WOULD HELP IF ATC COULD UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE NOT TRYING TO MAKE THEIR OPERATION DIFFICULT FOR THEM, BUT RATHER TO AVOID A SIT THAT IS EITHER UNSAFE OR PLACES US IN JEOPARDY OF CERTIFICATE ACTION.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.