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37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
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An air carrier medium large transport flight crew complains about the simultaneous lda to runway 30L and ILS to runway 30R. These approachs appear to be legal according to terps criteria. The reporter admits that the other aircraft was visually acquired early enough in the approach for him to make a safe transition to runway 30L and land. However, the reporter said that there was only about 2000 ft between the aircraft when visual contact was made and apparently, there were no separation instructions to either aircraft by approach control or tower.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 378275 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199708 |
| Day | Mon |
| Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | atc facility : fxd |
| State Reference | MO |
| Altitude | msl bound lower : 3200 msl bound upper : 4500 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | IMC |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : stl tower : stl |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | Commercial Fixed Wing |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Make Model Name | Any Unknown or Unlisted Aircraft Manufacturer |
| Operating Under FAR Part | other : unknown |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : commercial pilot : flight engineer pilot : instrument |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 205 flight time total : 20000 flight time type : 5000 |
| ASRS Report | 378275 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : commercial pilot : instrument |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | other anomaly other |
| Independent Detector | aircraft equipment other aircraft equipment : unspecified other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | none taken : detected after the fact |
| Consequence | Other |
| Miss Distance | horizontal : 3000 vertical : 50 |
| Supplementary | |
| Air Traffic Incident | other |
Narrative:
Stl was flying parallel approachs using the lda runway 30L and ILS runway 30R. We were flying the lda at an assigned speed of 170 KTS. We first noticed traffic on our TCASII that was several hundred ft below us and to our right. We were in the clouds, IMC. Stl approach asked if we had the traffic in sight and I said no. The other aircraft was so close on TCASII that we flew the lda favoring slightly left of centerline. When both aircraft broke out of the clouds at 3200 ft we were probably only 2000 ft horizontal separation and at exactly the same altitude. Approach control should stagger aircraft more on these approachs. I feel the separation in IFR was unsafe. The approach controller put both aircraft in this situation and I believe he hoped we would see each other and relieve him of any separation responsibility. When the WX didn't permit visual he let the situation continue.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: AN ACR MLG FLC COMPLAINS ABOUT THE SIMULTANEOUS LDA TO RWY 30L AND ILS TO RWY 30R. THESE APCHS APPEAR TO BE LEGAL ACCORDING TO TERPS CRITERIA. THE RPTR ADMITS THAT THE OTHER ACFT WAS VISUALLY ACQUIRED EARLY ENOUGH IN THE APCH FOR HIM TO MAKE A SAFE TRANSITION TO RWY 30L AND LAND. HOWEVER, THE RPTR SAID THAT THERE WAS ONLY ABOUT 2000 FT BTWN THE ACFT WHEN VISUAL CONTACT WAS MADE AND APPARENTLY, THERE WERE NO SEPARATION INSTRUCTIONS TO EITHER ACFT BY APCH CTL OR TWR.
Narrative: STL WAS FLYING PARALLEL APCHS USING THE LDA RWY 30L AND ILS RWY 30R. WE WERE FLYING THE LDA AT AN ASSIGNED SPD OF 170 KTS. WE FIRST NOTICED TFC ON OUR TCASII THAT WAS SEVERAL HUNDRED FT BELOW US AND TO OUR R. WE WERE IN THE CLOUDS, IMC. STL APCH ASKED IF WE HAD THE TFC IN SIGHT AND I SAID NO. THE OTHER ACFT WAS SO CLOSE ON TCASII THAT WE FLEW THE LDA FAVORING SLIGHTLY L OF CTRLINE. WHEN BOTH ACFT BROKE OUT OF THE CLOUDS AT 3200 FT WE WERE PROBABLY ONLY 2000 FT HORIZ SEPARATION AND AT EXACTLY THE SAME ALT. APCH CTL SHOULD STAGGER ACFT MORE ON THESE APCHS. I FEEL THE SEPARATION IN IFR WAS UNSAFE. THE APCH CTLR PUT BOTH ACFT IN THIS SIT AND I BELIEVE HE HOPED WE WOULD SEE EACH OTHER AND RELIEVE HIM OF ANY SEPARATION RESPONSIBILITY. WHEN THE WX DIDN'T PERMIT VISUAL HE LET THE SIT CONTINUE.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.