Narrative:

During preflight, ramper told captain cargo load may be heavy. Passenger boarded and seated so that all empty seats were aft. Because of WX and outside temperature, right engine started for passenger comfort -- relief gpu for other aircraft. WX included gusty wind -- blowing snow. Aircraft parked on incline -- unlevel outer ramp. After cargo loading complete, ramper indicated tail-stand on ground -- weight and balance close out with company completed, weight and center of gravity indicated well within limitations. Captain adjusted right propeller pitch, nose gear compressed, tail-stand free, and stored. While awaiting deicing 1 hour 20 mins delay, flight attendant served complimentary beverages throughout cabin. Deicing completed. Immediately before takeoff, first officer made visual inspection from cabin. Holdover times and limitations well within limits. Confign for takeoff -- flaps 15 degrees, power 100 percent, 'B' type (note snow on runway) and reduce takeoff roll. Takeoff normal. After gear retraction, aircraft pitched up to 20 degrees, control forces to overcome required assistance from PNF. During all this crew coordination excellent, callouts for airspeed and pitch, aircraft complying with departure, request by ATC/tower. Pitch forces overcome by crew using trim approximately 800-1000 ft MSL/AGL -- airspeed decayed to less than 'V-1.' after normal pitch recovery, reconfigured clean up after acceleration through v-clean. Handling characteristics and performance normal through remainder of flight -- continued to destination. Confign for landing at destination, aircraft 'felt' tail heavy. Landing normal. Captain requested recount and cargo weights -- weighing would cause major inconvenience to passenger -- flight already 2 hours late. Captain accepted recount from rampers -- results -- same as departure, except ramper commented '80 percent of bags should have been duffle bag weight.' with note bags 24 pounds, duffle 65 pounds. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: reporter states this problem is not just at jfk. It exists at mia and dfw as well. Those are the airports reporter is familiar with, there may be others. Reporter is a safety representative for the union and has been trying to work through them to get some change. So far not much has happened. Reporter feels this problem is partially the fault of FAA for allowing the averaging of bags which are loaded. There is no training to teach anyone how to average, so it really results in guesswork. Reporter feels he partially contributed to the incident by being helpful and using the technique of lifting the weight off the tail with free wheeling the propeller and depressing the nosewheel. He has learned that the procedure, though used by mechanics, is a violation of FARS. If the tail is so heavy that the tail stand cannot be removed, then the weight is not distributed correctly, and some baggage needs to be removed. He now stands and watches the loading whenever possible. He has had baggage off loaded when he feels uncomfortable with the procedure or the amount of the load. Reporter solution is to have parent company allow use of the weighing equipment and mark each bag with a universal sticker with actual weights. The second thing needed is training of ground personnel to make them aware that it is not just the amount of the load, but how and where it is loaded. Pilots have offered to meet with ground personnel and hold education sessions, but company will not pay the ground crews to do so. Aircraft is saab 340.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: COMMUTER PLT ON SAAB 340 HAS OUT OF CTR OF GRAVITY OVERWT PROBS AFTER TKOF.

Narrative: DURING PREFLT, RAMPER TOLD CAPT CARGO LOAD MAY BE HVY. PAX BOARDED AND SEATED SO THAT ALL EMPTY SEATS WERE AFT. BECAUSE OF WX AND OUTSIDE TEMP, R ENG STARTED FOR PAX COMFORT -- RELIEF GPU FOR OTHER ACFT. WX INCLUDED GUSTY WIND -- BLOWING SNOW. ACFT PARKED ON INCLINE -- UNLEVEL OUTER RAMP. AFTER CARGO LOADING COMPLETE, RAMPER INDICATED TAIL-STAND ON GND -- WT AND BAL CLOSE OUT WITH COMPANY COMPLETED, WT AND CTR OF GRAVITY INDICATED WELL WITHIN LIMITATIONS. CAPT ADJUSTED R PROP PITCH, NOSE GEAR COMPRESSED, TAIL-STAND FREE, AND STORED. WHILE AWAITING DEICING 1 HR 20 MINS DELAY, FLT ATTENDANT SERVED COMPLIMENTARY BEVERAGES THROUGHOUT CABIN. DEICING COMPLETED. IMMEDIATELY BEFORE TKOF, FO MADE VISUAL INSPECTION FROM CABIN. HOLDOVER TIMES AND LIMITATIONS WELL WITHIN LIMITS. CONFIGN FOR TKOF -- FLAPS 15 DEGS, PWR 100 PERCENT, 'B' TYPE (NOTE SNOW ON RWY) AND REDUCE TKOF ROLL. TKOF NORMAL. AFTER GEAR RETRACTION, ACFT PITCHED UP TO 20 DEGS, CTL FORCES TO OVERCOME REQUIRED ASSISTANCE FROM PNF. DURING ALL THIS CREW COORD EXCELLENT, CALLOUTS FOR AIRSPD AND PITCH, ACFT COMPLYING WITH DEP, REQUEST BY ATC/TWR. PITCH FORCES OVERCOME BY CREW USING TRIM APPROX 800-1000 FT MSL/AGL -- AIRSPD DECAYED TO LESS THAN 'V-1.' AFTER NORMAL PITCH RECOVERY, RECONFIGURED CLEAN UP AFTER ACCELERATION THROUGH V-CLEAN. HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS AND PERFORMANCE NORMAL THROUGH REMAINDER OF FLT -- CONTINUED TO DEST. CONFIGN FOR LNDG AT DEST, ACFT 'FELT' TAIL HVY. LNDG NORMAL. CAPT REQUESTED RECOUNT AND CARGO WTS -- WEIGHING WOULD CAUSE MAJOR INCONVENIENCE TO PAX -- FLT ALREADY 2 HRS LATE. CAPT ACCEPTED RECOUNT FROM RAMPERS -- RESULTS -- SAME AS DEP, EXCEPT RAMPER COMMENTED '80 PERCENT OF BAGS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DUFFLE BAG WT.' WITH NOTE BAGS 24 LBS, DUFFLE 65 LBS. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR STATES THIS PROB IS NOT JUST AT JFK. IT EXISTS AT MIA AND DFW AS WELL. THOSE ARE THE ARPTS RPTR IS FAMILIAR WITH, THERE MAY BE OTHERS. RPTR IS A SAFETY REPRESENTATIVE FOR THE UNION AND HAS BEEN TRYING TO WORK THROUGH THEM TO GET SOME CHANGE. SO FAR NOT MUCH HAS HAPPENED. RPTR FEELS THIS PROB IS PARTIALLY THE FAULT OF FAA FOR ALLOWING THE AVERAGING OF BAGS WHICH ARE LOADED. THERE IS NO TRAINING TO TEACH ANYONE HOW TO AVERAGE, SO IT REALLY RESULTS IN GUESSWORK. RPTR FEELS HE PARTIALLY CONTRIBUTED TO THE INCIDENT BY BEING HELPFUL AND USING THE TECHNIQUE OF LIFTING THE WEIGHT OFF THE TAIL WITH FREE WHEELING THE PROP AND DEPRESSING THE NOSEWHEEL. HE HAS LEARNED THAT THE PROC, THOUGH USED BY MECHS, IS A VIOLATION OF FARS. IF THE TAIL IS SO HVY THAT THE TAIL STAND CANNOT BE REMOVED, THEN THE WEIGHT IS NOT DISTRIBUTED CORRECTLY, AND SOME BAGGAGE NEEDS TO BE REMOVED. HE NOW STANDS AND WATCHES THE LOADING WHENEVER POSSIBLE. HE HAS HAD BAGGAGE OFF LOADED WHEN HE FEELS UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE PROC OR THE AMOUNT OF THE LOAD. RPTR SOLUTION IS TO HAVE PARENT COMPANY ALLOW USE OF THE WEIGHING EQUIP AND MARK EACH BAG WITH A UNIVERSAL STICKER WITH ACTUAL WEIGHTS. THE SECOND THING NEEDED IS TRAINING OF GND PERSONNEL TO MAKE THEM AWARE THAT IT IS NOT JUST THE AMOUNT OF THE LOAD, BUT HOW AND WHERE IT IS LOADED. PLTS HAVE OFFERED TO MEET WITH GND PERSONNEL AND HOLD EDUCATION SESSIONS, BUT COMPANY WILL NOT PAY THE GND CREWS TO DO SO. ACFT IS SAAB 340.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.