<< >> NASA ASRS Report 185177, July 1991

Air carrier unable to meet speed and crossing restriction on profile descent. Has TCASII RA and descended to avoid traffic.

Attributes
ACN	185177
Time
Date	199107
Day	Mon
Local Time Of Day	1201 To 1800
Place
Locale Reference	atc facility : lax
State Reference	CA
Altitude	msl bound lower : 11000 msl bound upper : 11500
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : lax
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Widebody, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng
Navigation In Use	Other Other
Flight Phase	descent other
Route In Use	arrival : profile descent enroute airway : lax
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 16000 flight time type : 800
ASRS Report	185177
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : atp pilot : commercial pilot : instrument
Events
Anomaly	altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met altitude deviation : undershoot non adherence : published procedure non adherence : clearance other anomaly other anomaly other
Independent Detector	aircraft equipment other aircraft equipment : unspecified other controllera other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	flight crew : took evasive action
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew
Miss Distance	horizontal : 12000 vertical : 300
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	Pilot Deviation

Narrative:

We had been cleared for a civet 2 profile descent to lax. The copilot was flying. I told lax center that we weren't going to be able to cross arnes as published (at or below 10000 ft, at or above 10000 ft, and at 250 KTS). They said ok and switched us to lax approach, saying that they would tell approach about our situation crossing arnes. I assumed the ok meant they approved for us to differ from the profile descent. About 3 mi from arnes lax approach told us there was traffic at 11500 12 O'clock, 5 mi. Our TCAS said to descend, so we did. We never saw the traffic. Contributing factors: 1) fatigue. Flight plan from lhr to lax was 10 plus 55. Hotel pickup was 2 1/2 hours prior to scheduled gate departure. 2) ca and first officer hadn't been to lax for 2-3 yrs. 3) first officer has been on international for 6 months. Previously he flew domestic captain for a yr and before that international first officer on same aircraft. It was my first trip with him. I assumed too much about his ability and didn't say anything earlier when I thought that he might not be descending soon enough.

Related reports:

• An emb-145 flight crew misread the 6;000 MSL crossing restri...
• A Q-400 descended below the crossing restriction at rayni wh...
• A B737 descending on the slc delta 3 arrival descended below...
• Air carrier X descended below crossing restriction. Pilot de...
• Crossing altitude restriction charted at later intersection ...

	Enter your search terms Submit search form
	Web www.37000feet.com

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: ACR UNABLE TO MEET SPD AND XING RESTRICTION ON PROFILE DSCNT. HAS TCASII RA AND DSNDED TO AVOID TFC.

Narrative: WE HAD BEEN CLRED FOR A CIVET 2 PROFILE DSCNT TO LAX. THE COPLT WAS FLYING. I TOLD LAX CENTER THAT WE WEREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO CROSS ARNES AS PUBLISHED (AT OR BELOW 10000 FT, AT OR ABOVE 10000 FT, AND AT 250 KTS). THEY SAID OK AND SWITCHED US TO LAX APCH, SAYING THAT THEY WOULD TELL APCH ABOUT OUR SITUATION XING ARNES. I ASSUMED THE OK MEANT THEY APPROVED FOR US TO DIFFER FROM THE PROFILE DSCNT. ABOUT 3 MI FROM ARNES LAX APCH TOLD US THERE WAS TFC AT 11500 12 O'CLOCK, 5 MI. OUR TCAS SAID TO DSND, SO WE DID. WE NEVER SAW THE TFC. CONTRIBUTING FACTORS: 1) FATIGUE. FLT PLAN FROM LHR TO LAX WAS 10 PLUS 55. HOTEL PICKUP WAS 2 1/2 HRS PRIOR TO SCHEDULED GATE DEP. 2) CA AND FO HADN'T BEEN TO LAX FOR 2-3 YRS. 3) FO HAS BEEN ON INTL FOR 6 MONTHS. PREVIOUSLY HE FLEW DOMESTIC CAPT FOR A YR AND BEFORE THAT INTL FO ON SAME ACFT. IT WAS MY FIRST TRIP WITH HIM. I ASSUMED TOO MUCH ABOUT HIS ABILITY AND DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING EARLIER WHEN I THOUGHT THAT HE MIGHT NOT BE DSNDING SOON ENOUGH.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.