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Apparent premature descent for air carrier medium large transport X leads to possible loss of separation with air carrier medium large transport Y.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 157864 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199009 |
| Day | Tue |
| Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | airport : lax |
| State Reference | CA |
| Altitude | msl bound lower : 4500 msl bound upper : 4500 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Night |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : lax |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach |
| Route In Use | approach : visual enroute : on vectors |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach |
| Route In Use | approach : visual enroute : on vectors |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : commercial pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer pilot : instrument |
| ASRS Report | 157864 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : commercial |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 10000 flight time type : 150 |
| ASRS Report | 157860 |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | altitude deviation : excursion from assigned altitude conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : clearance |
| Independent Detector | other controllera |
| Resolutory Action | none taken : detected after the fact |
| Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
| Supplementary | |
| Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
| Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
Narrative:
On approach to lax we had been given a 160 degree heading and 4500' by lax TRACON. We were asked if we had the traffic at 9-10 O'clock and we answered that we did (and we also had 12 O'clock traffic low also which we were not asked about). We were then cleared for a visibility approach with a restriction to maintain 4500' until clear of traffic. As the 160 degree heading was given very close to the airport we had to begin our descent to land on runway 25R and we were well clear of the traffic we'd seen for runway 24L-right. TRACON later claimed we descended in front of a third medium large transport Y which we did not see. We spoke to TRACON by phone and understood it was a misunderstanding as to how many aircraft were involved, and that the third medium large transport Y did not have lights on. We never saw that aircraft. Supplemental information from acn 157864. Controller turned us on base leg too high and too close to the airport. Night visibility approach based on following an aircraft was not seen when crew apparently thought they had.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: APPARENT PREMATURE DESCENT FOR ACR MLG X LEADS TO POSSIBLE LOSS OF SEPARATION WITH ACR MLG Y.
Narrative: ON APCH TO LAX WE HAD BEEN GIVEN A 160 DEG HDG AND 4500' BY LAX TRACON. WE WERE ASKED IF WE HAD THE TFC AT 9-10 O'CLOCK AND WE ANSWERED THAT WE DID (AND WE ALSO HAD 12 O'CLOCK TFC LOW ALSO WHICH WE WERE NOT ASKED ABOUT). WE WERE THEN CLRED FOR A VIS APCH WITH A RESTRICTION TO MAINTAIN 4500' UNTIL CLR OF TFC. AS THE 160 DEG HDG WAS GIVEN VERY CLOSE TO THE ARPT WE HAD TO BEGIN OUR DSNT TO LAND ON RWY 25R AND WE WERE WELL CLR OF THE TFC WE'D SEEN FOR RWY 24L-R. TRACON LATER CLAIMED WE DSNDED IN FRONT OF A THIRD MLG Y WHICH WE DID NOT SEE. WE SPOKE TO TRACON BY PHONE AND UNDERSTOOD IT WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING AS TO HOW MANY ACFT WERE INVOLVED, AND THAT THE THIRD MLG Y DID NOT HAVE LIGHTS ON. WE NEVER SAW THAT ACFT. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 157864. CTLR TURNED US ON BASE LEG TOO HIGH AND TOO CLOSE TO THE ARPT. NIGHT VIS APCH BASED ON FOLLOWING AN ACFT WAS NOT SEEN WHEN CREW APPARENTLY THOUGHT THEY HAD.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.