Flight crew controller shootout at dal due encounter with buildup.

Attributes
ACN	142980
Time
Date	199004
Day	Fri
Local Time Of Day	1801 To 2400
Place
Locale Reference	airport : dal
State Reference	TX
Altitude	agl bound lower : 1000 agl bound upper : 1000
Environment
Flight Conditions	IMC
Light	Dusk
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : dfw tower : fll
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng
Flight Phase	climbout : intermediate altitude climbout : takeoff ground other : taxi
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 270 flight time total : 8000 flight time type : 5000
ASRS Report	142980
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : cfi pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 7000 flight time type : 750
ASRS Report	142983
Events
Anomaly	inflight encounter : weather non adherence : clearance non adherence : far other spatial deviation
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	none taken : anomaly accepted
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	Pilot Deviation

Narrative:

Taxied out away from the direction for departure. With low ceilings and sigmets reported for parts of the state for thunderstorms, I was cautious about WX. We were cleared for takeoff as we approached the end of the runway. Radar was already on, so as I made the 180 degree turn to runway heading, I observed what appeared to be an isolated 'red' cell about 6-8 mi off the end of the runway. As I advanced power for takeoff, I told the first officer to ask for a left turn to avoid the WX once we were airborne. Once airborne the tower switched us over to departure control, and the first officer made the left turn request. The response was an 'unable' due to traffic. I again told the first officer to tell departure control we needed to turn left to avoid WX. Again it was denied, and a comment made about our taking off into WX was made. I then told departure we were turning left to avoid WX, and if additional comments were necessary we could talk about it later. Only then did ATC offer the avoidance heading and altitude to avoid conflict with arrival traffic. After the return trip, I called ATC to discuss the situation. I acknowledged that in the future, I would be more reluctant to make an expeditious departure, if WX appears to be a factor, west/O clearing the departure route first. This did not seem to satisfy the ATC supervisor I was talking to. He further questioned the need for a turn since no one else had requested one (kinda makes you think what would have happened if someone else had requested a turn). I realize I put myself in this situation by trying to be expeditious on my departure and feeling confident that 99% of the time ATC trys to help. However, this time ATC did not help after I asked twice, and I was forced to turn to take the safest course I thought available. I also realize a request to avoid WX does not mean the same to ATC as it does to airborne crews, else you would never hear 'unable' or 'standby'. In this case, a turn/new altitude should have been issued first, then there would have been ample time to discuss my departure into WX.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: FLT CREW CTLR SHOOTOUT AT DAL DUE ENCOUNTER WITH BUILDUP.

Narrative: TAXIED OUT AWAY FROM THE DIRECTION FOR DEP. WITH LOW CEILINGS AND SIGMETS RPTED FOR PARTS OF THE STATE FOR TSTMS, I WAS CAUTIOUS ABOUT WX. WE WERE CLRED FOR TKOF AS WE APCHED THE END OF THE RWY. RADAR WAS ALREADY ON, SO AS I MADE THE 180 DEG TURN TO RWY HDG, I OBSERVED WHAT APPEARED TO BE AN ISOLATED 'RED' CELL ABOUT 6-8 MI OFF THE END OF THE RWY. AS I ADVANCED PWR FOR TKOF, I TOLD THE F/O TO ASK FOR A L TURN TO AVOID THE WX ONCE WE WERE AIRBORNE. ONCE AIRBORNE THE TWR SWITCHED US OVER TO DEP CTL, AND THE F/O MADE THE L TURN REQUEST. THE RESPONSE WAS AN 'UNABLE' DUE TO TFC. I AGAIN TOLD THE F/O TO TELL DEP CTL WE NEEDED TO TURN L TO AVOID WX. AGAIN IT WAS DENIED, AND A COMMENT MADE ABOUT OUR TAKING OFF INTO WX WAS MADE. I THEN TOLD DEP WE WERE TURNING L TO AVOID WX, AND IF ADDITIONAL COMMENTS WERE NECESSARY WE COULD TALK ABOUT IT LATER. ONLY THEN DID ATC OFFER THE AVOIDANCE HDG AND ALT TO AVOID CONFLICT WITH ARR TFC. AFTER THE RETURN TRIP, I CALLED ATC TO DISCUSS THE SITUATION. I ACKNOWLEDGED THAT IN THE FUTURE, I WOULD BE MORE RELUCTANT TO MAKE AN EXPEDITIOUS DEP, IF WX APPEARS TO BE A FACTOR, W/O CLRING THE DEP RTE FIRST. THIS DID NOT SEEM TO SATISFY THE ATC SUPVR I WAS TALKING TO. HE FURTHER QUESTIONED THE NEED FOR A TURN SINCE NO ONE ELSE HAD REQUESTED ONE (KINDA MAKES YOU THINK WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF SOMEONE ELSE HAD REQUESTED A TURN). I REALIZE I PUT MYSELF IN THIS SITUATION BY TRYING TO BE EXPEDITIOUS ON MY DEP AND FEELING CONFIDENT THAT 99% OF THE TIME ATC TRYS TO HELP. HOWEVER, THIS TIME ATC DID NOT HELP AFTER I ASKED TWICE, AND I WAS FORCED TO TURN TO TAKE THE SAFEST COURSE I THOUGHT AVAILABLE. I ALSO REALIZE A REQUEST TO AVOID WX DOES NOT MEAN THE SAME TO ATC AS IT DOES TO AIRBORNE CREWS, ELSE YOU WOULD NEVER HEAR 'UNABLE' OR 'STANDBY'. IN THIS CASE, A TURN/NEW ALT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ISSUED FIRST, THEN THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN AMPLE TIME TO DISCUSS MY DEP INTO WX.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.