Reporter complains about the way visual apches are being applied at lax.

Attributes
ACN	124355
Time
Date	198910
Day	Thu
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	atc facility : lax
State Reference	CA
Altitude	msl bound lower : 14000 msl bound upper : 14000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : lax tower : sav
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Widebody, Low Wing, 3 Turbojet Eng
Navigation In Use	Other
Flight Phase	descent : approach
Route In Use	approach : visual arrival : profile descent
Flight Plan	IFR
Aircraft 2
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Widebody, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng
Navigation In Use	Other Other
Flight Phase	descent : approach
Route In Use	approach : visual arrival : profile descent
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : instrument pilot : flight engineer pilot : cfi pilot : atp pilot : commercial
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 180 flight time total : 15000 flight time type : 1500
ASRS Report	124355
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : atp
Events
Anomaly	other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	none taken : unable
Consequence	Other
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	other

Narrative:

Los angeles is using a nonstandard approach procedure to 'pack a lot more airplanes in during visual mode'. In doing so, air safety is being compromised. The procedure goes like this: on the civet profile descent procedure, somewhere about arnes, the controller will ask, 'air carrier X, do you see a widebody transport at 12 O'clock? If the pilot responds yes, the controller says, 'air carrier X follow that airplane, you're cleared for a visual approach to 25R after fueler.' the nonstandard part of such a clearance is the pilot is given the responsibility for spacing without having a visual approach clearance. The pilot is not cleared for the visual approach until after crossing fueler, a fix 10-20 mi ahead. Even maintaining visual separation prior to an approach clearance might not be so bad, except, in this case, the pilot is still also responsible for the civet profile descent procedure, which still includes: 1) a hard crossing restriction at arnes, 2) a hard speed restriction at arnes, 3) a hard crossing restriction at suzzy, and 4) a hard crossing restriction at fueler. If you have ever executed the civet profile procedure, I'm sure you will agree it is the most complex and the most difficult profile descent procedure in the world. Therefore, the civet profile requires the full attention of the full crew. And, if on top of the civet profile workload, a crew adds the workload of maintaining visual separation with another aircraft, in the smoggy environment of los angeles, the workload becomes unacceptably high during the most critical phase of flight.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: REPORTER COMPLAINS ABOUT THE WAY VISUAL APCHES ARE BEING APPLIED AT LAX.

Narrative: LOS ANGELES IS USING A NONSTANDARD APCH PROC TO 'PACK A LOT MORE AIRPLANES IN DURING VISUAL MODE'. IN DOING SO, AIR SAFETY IS BEING COMPROMISED. THE PROC GOES LIKE THIS: ON THE CIVET PROFILE DESCENT PROC, SOMEWHERE ABOUT ARNES, THE CTLR WILL ASK, 'ACR X, DO YOU SEE A WDB AT 12 O'CLOCK? IF THE PLT RESPONDS YES, THE CTLR SAYS, 'ACR X FOLLOW THAT AIRPLANE, YOU'RE CLRED FOR A VISUAL APCH TO 25R AFTER FUELER.' THE NONSTANDARD PART OF SUCH A CLRNC IS THE PLT IS GIVEN THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR SPACING WITHOUT HAVING A VISUAL APCH CLRNC. THE PLT IS NOT CLRED FOR THE VISUAL APCH UNTIL AFTER XING FUELER, A FIX 10-20 MI AHEAD. EVEN MAINTAINING VISUAL SEPARATION PRIOR TO AN APCH CLRNC MIGHT NOT BE SO BAD, EXCEPT, IN THIS CASE, THE PLT IS STILL ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CIVET PROFILE DSCNT PROC, WHICH STILL INCLUDES: 1) A HARD XING RESTRICTION AT ARNES, 2) A HARD SPEED RESTRICTION AT ARNES, 3) A HARD XING RESTRICTION AT SUZZY, AND 4) A HARD XING RESTRICTION AT FUELER. IF YOU HAVE EVER EXECUTED THE CIVET PROFILE PROC, I'M SURE YOU WILL AGREE IT IS THE MOST COMPLEX AND THE MOST DIFFICULT PROFILE DSCNT PROC IN THE WORLD. THEREFORE, THE CIVET PROFILE REQUIRES THE FULL ATTN OF THE FULL CREW. AND, IF ON TOP OF THE CIVET PROFILE WORKLOAD, A CREW ADDS THE WORKLOAD OF MAINTAINING VISUAL SEPARATION WITH ANOTHER ACFT, IN THE SMOGGY ENVIRONMENT OF LOS ANGELES, THE WORKLOAD BECOMES UNACCEPTABLY HIGH DURING THE MOST CRITICAL PHASE OF FLT.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of August 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.